"Normal" Group 24 deep cycle battery lifespan vs car battery :)

[Leeward Rail]

Afternoon all !

"Normal" Group 24 deep cycle battery lifespan ?
I know this a a loaded question. It obviously depends on how much use it gets, how it is charged, how often it is deep discharged.

The reason I ask is this:
I've been having discussions with a customer who used a group 27 deep cycle RV battery in his RV. He now uses a premium car battery meant for cold climate use.

His reasoning:
A deep cycle battery has a 1 year warranty and lasts him a few years.
A car battery with a 5 year free replacement, costs less, and while it may fail quicker from RV use, you can simply go get a new one every spring for 5 years.

So how about it ?
How long has you deep cycle battery been lasting in your c22 ?

 

[Gene Neill]

My Duracell Ultra is three years old and going strong. I have not tested it, technically, ever. But it seems to hold up as well as it ever did.

But man ... after reading @Maine Sail 's articles on the subject, I would not use a car battery on my boat if they were literally free. Seriously.

 

[Leeward Rail]

All the info I've seen, including the info stated by @Maine Sail , says that the group 24 deep cycle batteries are not true deep cycle at all.

If i ever move the single battery, and install two 6 volt batteries in parallel, then I'd get a real deep cycle.

But if the common marine group 24 units are just pseudo deep cycle with much lower life spans and capacity than a real one, I'm having a hard time disagreeing with my customer's argument that I should just get a new "free" battery every spring.
It would only get 20 days use a year at the very most, with the minimal power use of a Catalina 22.

 

[greg_m]

Thats very interesting about the "free car battery" story! Here in good ole SA we get a 6-month guarantee!

Interms of a coastal/local waters 22 foot cruiser one should consider application/cost and what your return on investment would be. No point in having a "Nasa" spec battery on a C22. So the best bang for the buck rules in my view.

Check out "BatteryStuff.com" if you want some good reading. At the higher end of quality batteries and cost is the Relion batteries. They have some very good reading materials which is very helpful in understanding different types of batteries as well as different chemical compositions of batteries. I just wish the Relions in SA would not cost six months worth of Salary!

 

[Maine Sail]

A car battery with a 5 year free replacement...

Can you point us to a non-prorated 5 year free replacement car battery? 3 year is about the longest I have seen..

while it may fail quicker from RV use, you can simply go get a new one every spring for 5 years.

IMHO this is an egregious level of dishonesty and is intentional theft by deception.

 

[Leeward Rail]

Can you point us to a non-prorated 5 year free replacement car battery? 3 year is about the longest I have seen..

I own a Motormaster Eliminator automotive battery that is in the middle of a 5 year free replacement, 10 year prorated warranty but that was an extended warranty. I had to to pay extra to get the additional 5 years prorated.
Their current warranty is 4 years free replacement + 4 years roadside boosting, for flooded.
http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/motomaster-eliminator-automotive-batteries-0103485p.html#srp

Their current warranty is 5 years free replacement + 5 years roadside boosting, for AGM.
http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/m...ra-agm-automotive-batteries-0103420p.html#srp


Compare that to their
$98 USD, Nautilus group 24 start/pseudo deep cycle battery with 1 year waranty
http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/m...starting-deep-cycle-battery-0102499p.html#srp

$190 USD, Group 24 AGM Deep Cycle with 2 Year Warranty
http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/m...p-24-agm-deep-cycle-battery-0102498p.html#srp


I live where the winter temps go below -30 and since my varied work locations don't usually have electrical plugins for block heaters, my car batteries rarely last more than 4 years. That's why I buy Eliminator batteries.
I can get 2 batteries that last a total of 8 years in a climate and operating environment that is murder on them.

IMHO this is an egregious level of dishonesty and is intentional theft by deception.

I said as much to the parts guy who suggested it. But he said they get batteries all the time that die a premature death, due to how they are used and/or maintained. As long as the battery is not damaged by freezing, and it tests as bad on their testing equipment, it's eligible for warranty replacement.
It's playing by the rules they set.

He doesn't have to replace the one in his RV every spring, but could easily do so.
In fact, this discussion came up, when I was doing wiring on his RV, and testing his batteries.

He started using car batteries as his RV house batteries when one if his customers, who was doing a warranty claim told him how he was using it.

 

[Benny17441]

RV battery usage and battery usage in sailboats differ. The usual RV when on the road is connected to the tow vehicle's alternator or to its own in a motor home. Most use electric hookups at campgrounds so the battery usage is actually suitable to that of a Starter (car) battery. In a sailboat with limited recharging power or none at all when underway battery usage relies on the capacity of a battery to provide multiple cycles of deeper charge/discharge. What may work for your customer may not necessarily make sense for you. I personally think having battery power is much more important for safety considerations in a boat than in an RV so it is more critical to use the correct product. To me a battery warranty is not measured in how many years but in how many different locations I may be able to replace it. As a coastal cruiser I find that Walmart batteries provide a fair exchange between price and service locations. A world cruiser may require better quality and longer lasting batteries while the day sailor may borrow his car battery for an outing. To each its own.

 

[rpludwig]

I'll chime in....have read all the above including Mainesail's excellent advice and prior posts, which I applaud and is spot on.

I'm dealing with a C22 with minimal draw, shore power at the dock for topping up, daysailing only. My current take is an $80 Walmart/Sam's deep cycle marine battery suits my present needs.

If I have to replace it, even annually (warranty or not), it is peanuts compared to other dollars spent annually on this boat (rum comes to mind!).

That said, I'll likely change my opinion (and my battery budget) as I expand my sailing from local river/close coastal cruising to beyond.....fwiw...

 

[Leeward Rail]

I just got off the phone with the auto parts guy.
They sell East Penn and Exide batteries under their sticker brand. 5 years NON-prorated warranty.

Based on @greg_m and @Maine Sail 's comments I can only assume that warranties seem to widely vary from country to country, due to competition or other factors ?

When I mentioned about the concern of "dishonesty", he said it's no different than automotive suspension parts with a limited lifetime warranty. They warranty them whether you drive to church on sunday or pound them to death at 60 mph on a gravel road.
The normal exclusions, void the warranty.... if you do not grease them, use them on modified suspension vehicles, or in a few cases...use them on commercial vehicles.

Like most warranties they play the numbers game. Make sure you make enough across the board so it covers warranty.

FWIW: I've replaced CV axles on my cars more than once, with Dorman brand axles. Only paid for them the first time. They bank on the fact that most people don't keep their vehicles for decades.

In this case, for batteries, they make sure you didn't freeze them, on run them dry. They then test them. If they fail the test, and they were not damaged from freezing or run dry, they honor the warranty, whether it was used in a diesel truck or a honda or a motorhome, or an LED "art installation". Nothing fraudulent or dishonest about that.

 

[Leeward Rail]

To me a battery warranty is not measured in how many years but in how many different locations I may be able to replace it.

That's exactly why most Canadians get batteries from Canadian Tire.
Nationwide availability. In fact, my lake has a store with docks so you can sail up, buy your stuff, and sail away.

I have looked into the Rolls 24M 85 battery, but it has a limited number of dealers around here, and none of those stock it. (unfortunate since it's made in Canada)

Based on what other C22 owners have, I know a cheap pseudo deep cycle, will work for a C22.
That's why I wondered if a premium automotive one can get by. If i save $100 CAD over the life of the battery, I'm all for it. Whether I can easily afford the more expensive one or not.
Like any battery, I'd simply keep an eye on it, and replace as needed.
But, if the battery dies after 2 weekends of use, or in the middle of a weekend. then it's not worth the savings.

 

[Gene Neill]

I can't believe I'm apparently the only one here with a group 24 deep cycle! Maybe everybody else is using car batteries, but they're too embarrassed to admit it. LOL

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

As a former dealer, the battery to be used depends on the application. If in larger boats it is designed for engine only, that is one case but for all other uses, a deep cycle. As for the name or whoever sells them, there are several plants in the U.S. that builds batteries for everyone only if you knew. As for the continuous draw down and recharge for example on a Catalina 22 mentioned here, I would stick to deep cycle. The use of a car battery will not last that long as the type of charging will wear them out much quicker. Points have been made as to warranty and replacement but I will not go there as to honesty. However, if you are in the middle of the Chesapeake bay at night and that car battery failed with no lights, then you are at risk being run over by a freighter. In addition, I have seen more of those car batteries for one reason or another explode and so on. As a former insurance investigator, I have seen a few insurance claims denied because of car battery vs. deep cycle. From a safety stand point, you know what I will choose but never cheapen safety for saving a few bucks.

 

[Leeward Rail]

However, if you are in the middle of the Chesapeake bay at night and that car battery failed with no lights, then you are at risk being run over by a freighter.

In my use case that's not a risk, but definitely could be for someone sailing in different conditions.
FWIW: I think that any boat that is used at night, without lighting backup, no matter what type of house battery they use, is not a good idea. For example, I know more than a few people, like myself, who carry standalone battery operated anchor lights. Running lights for me are mostly pointless, but I maintain them anyhow.

In addition, I have seen more of those car batteries for one reason or another explode and so on. As a former insurance investigator, I have seen a few insurance claims denied because of car battery vs. deep cycle.

That's interesting ! Any idea what would cause them to fail so badly ? In the automotive industry, I've personally never seen such a thing happen, unless it was boosted with wrong polarity hookup, a spark occurred when high levels of hydrogen gas was present, etc. ie user error not simply a battery going boom when being used.

I wonder what the comparative rates of catastrophic failure are for deep cycle vs start batteries.
If the start batteries are more at risk, might it be due to thinner plates and what I'm guessing would be an increased risk of internal shorts ? hmm.

IMO, insurance companies would do anything to avoid payouts, to the point of grasping at straws. Of course that doesn't mean you should try poke the bear and give them any excuse.

 

[greg_m]

That's interesting ! Any idea what would cause them to fail so badly ? In the automotive industry, I've personally never seen such a thing happen, unless it was boosted with wrong polarity hookup, a spark occurred when high levels of hydrogen gas was present, etc. ie user error not simply a battery going boom when being used.

I had a starter battery explode on me about a year ago now. All I can say is thank God the thing was in a sturdy battery box and that battery box lid was secured with an anti-theft bracket made of steel to hold it down!

It was a 12 Volt 95Ah starter battery and all looked good and charged. I turned the key to crank our generator diesel engine over to start it, a 4 cylinder 2.2 liter naturally aspirated diesel engine with a 15kVA alternator, and after about a second it sounded like a grenade had gone off inside this box with the ensuing black smoke and fizzling noise. Needless to say I managed to move about 2 meters without moving my feet!

It takes about 200 to 300 Amps to crank the average small diesel engine over. This is what a starter motor battery is designed for. I'm thinking it was possible construction error. The whole casing violently split open, pieces of lead plate blown out and acid everywhere. Again thank god it was inside the box! The battery was just past 12 months old and any warrantee period was elapsed.

All safety aspects, mentioned before by previous posters, inside a small boat [heck any boat] concerning electricity should be well considered. I will never install a battery without a good solid enclosure ventilated overboard where possible. Hydrogen is lighter than air so will tend to rise.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

Leeward Rail,
I use to be a leading dealer for small sailboats in the country as I have seen and heard a lot. In addition, I use to be an insurance investigator before becoming a sailboat dealer. When I speak, it is based on Knowledge and experience only. As to the specific causes, they vary by the specific case. I always suggest what should be the norm, not cheap to save money. That pretty much is me and a lot learned came from close friends of mine to include Frank Butler himself. I was the only dealer he called when designing or upgrading small sailboats.