Mixed Battery Upgrade?

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Paul F

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Jun 3, 2004
827
Hunter 1980 - 33 Bradenton
Need more amps, thinking of adding two 6 volt batteries to my existing 2 Group 27s and 1 starting battery. Eventually I would like to end up with 4 6 volt and a starting battery. The problem is the six year old Group 27s just will not die :) The plan is to put the existing 2 Group 27s in bank #1, the 2 new 6 volt in bank #2 and hold the starting battery in reserve ready to go if needed. The easier approach would be to leave the starting battery in bank #1 and put the other 4 batteries together in bank #2. But, I have heard it will do harm to the new batteries to be linked together with older batteries. Any comments are appreciated. And, will I have the same problem when the Group 27s die when adding then new 6 volt batteries to the older 6 volt batteries? And, so it goes.
 
Sep 25, 2008
7,096
Alden 50 Sarasota, Florida
mixing batteries

Paul It's another example of the lowest commond denominator - that is, in therms of mixing old and new similar batteries, the one(s) with the lowest capacity will draw down the better ones to the lowest level making it a false economy to spend money on some new ones only to connect them to old ones. You get no benefit. Keeping them in separate, isolated banks is a better apporach.
 
May 11, 2005
3,431
Seidelman S37 Slidell, La.
Don is correct

You need to keep the old and the new totally isolated from each other. Also, keep the charging circuit seperate. You cannot charge a battery above the voltage of the poorest battery in the system.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,667
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
N and E..?

Quote: "You cannot charge a battery above the voltage of the poorest battery in the system." Can you elaborate on this? I think I know where your going but..... Oh, and to Paul, NEVER combine batteries of different ages or capacities unless they are being charged...
 
May 11, 2005
3,431
Seidelman S37 Slidell, La.
Main Sail

You know I think. Maybe I should have said it better. If you have one battery in the bank with a bad cell, you will not get a decent charge on any of the batteries in that bank.
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,775
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Yup, if it's broken, it won't work, so what's new?

The largest battery bank is better than a split house bank. See Calder's explanation which says batteries will last longer (i.e., less $$ down the line) if they are discharged at a lower %. Bigger single banks make the same # of batteries simply last longer. Read Ample Power Primer from www.amplepower.com to answer your other questions. I'd save my $$ and do the battery switch all at the same time. Here are some references for you: http://www.batteryfaq.org/index.htm IS IT BETTER TO HAVE ONE OR TWO BATTERY BANKS FOR HOUSE USE? (By Nigel Calder - I DIDN’T write this!!!) The popular arrangement of having two house banks alternated in use needs scrutiny before I go any further. LIFE CYCLES: As we have seen, the life expectancy of a battery in cycling service is directly related to the depth to which it is discharged at each cycle - the greater the depth of discharge, the shorter the battery’s life. This relationship between depth of discharge and battery life is NOT linear. As the depth of discharge increases, a battery’s life expectancy is disproportionately shortened. A given battery may cycle through 10% of its capacity 2,000 times, 50% of its capacity 300 times and 100% of its capacity around 100 times. Let’s say, for arguments sake, that a boat has two 200-ah battery banks, alternated from day to day, with a daily load of 80 Ah. Each bank will be discharged by 40% (80 Ah of one of the two 200 Ah banks) of its capacity before being recharged. The batteries will fail after 380 cycles, which is 760 days (since each is used every other day). If the two banks had been wired in parallel, to make a single 400 Ah battery bank, this bank would have been discharged by 20% of capacity every day, with a life expectancy of 800 days, a 5% increase in life expectancy using exactly the same batteries! But now let’s double the capacity of the batteries, so that the boat has either two 400 Ah banks, or a single 800 Ah bank, but with the same 80 Ah daily load. The two separate banks will be cycling through 20% of capacity every other day, resulting in a total life expectancy of 1,600 days. Doubling the size of the battery banks in relation to the load has produced a 210% increase in life expectancy. The single 800 Ah bank will be cycling through 10% of capacity every day, resulting in a life expectancy of 2,000 days - a 25% increase in life expectancy over the two (400 Ah) banks, and a 250% increase in life expectancy over the single 400 Ah battery bank! There are two immediate conclusions to be drawn from these figures: 1. For a given total battery capacity, wiring the (house) batteries into a single high capacity bank, rather than having them divided into two alternating banks, will result in a longer overall life expectancy for the batteries. 2. All other things being equal, any increase in the overall capacity of a battery bank will produce a disproportionate increase in its life expectancy (through reducing the depth of discharge at each cycle). FOR BATTERY LONGEVITY, A SINGLE LARGE (HOUSE) BANK, THE LARGER THE BETTER, IS PREFERABLE TO DIVIDED (HOUSE) BANKS.
 
Sep 25, 2008
7,096
Alden 50 Sarasota, Florida
one more comment Paul

A grp 27 (starting) battery really has no place in a house bank regardless of how you combine it/them. If it were me, I'd keep the best of the grp 27s as a separate start battery, trash the rest of them, and size your house bam with 6 v golf cart batteries based upon your typical energu utilization. Only as a safety precaution would you want to combine them for emergency starting in the event the start battery died.
 

Paul F

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Jun 3, 2004
827
Hunter 1980 - 33 Bradenton
Group 27s

One of the reasons the Group 27s are lasting so long is that they are deep cell Marine batteries, not starting batteries. The argument for one large bank has always made sense to me. Is the only reason for keeping old and new separate - that an old battery may/will develop a dead cell and bring down the rest of the batteries? If so is there an easy test for dead cells?
 
Sep 25, 2008
7,096
Alden 50 Sarasota, Florida
deep cycle Grp 27?

"Is the only reason for keeping old and new separate - that an old battery may/will develop a dead cell and bring down the rest of the batteries?" No! It isn't a dead cell which will discharge others in a common bank (although that will do it) but any one battery in a bank which has reduced capacity will bring down all others in that bank to the lowest level. As all old batteries have reduced capacity compared with new ones, it defeats the purpose of buying new batteries when you lower their usefulness because you connected them with an old one. Also, while you may be right, I'm not aware of anything such as a true deep cycle Gr27 battery - is there really such a thing?
 

Clark

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Jun 30, 2004
886
Hunter 280 Lake Guntersville, AL
Lifeline and East Penn Dekas come in Gps 24, 27, 31, 4D and 8D

amoung others.
 
Sep 25, 2008
7,096
Alden 50 Sarasota, Florida
these are combo start/deep cycle batteries

in looking through the specs at both the Deka and Lifeline sites, it appears Deka has only deep cycle/startimg combination so-called "dual purpose" batteries which are in reality neither. On the Lifeline battery site, I can find batteries labelled deep cycle and start but when comparing specs, they are virtually identical - in fact, their start battery has a slightly higher (i.e. longer) 20amp discharge rate than their comparably sized deep cycle battery which is really strange. Trojan advertizes a grp 27 deep cycle but it too has specs which make it sound like a start battery. I didn't search further yet but plan to when time permits. Thus far, it seems grp27 deep cycle batteries exist in name only if your cursory search is correct.
 
B

Benny

I agree with the concept that one large bank is more

efficient than a split one and that the batteries will last longer. This may be important for those sailors that are away from shorepower for extended periods of time or that have substantial power needs and carry expensive battery banks. But lets be fair to the average Joe that carries two inexpensive wet cell group 27's deep cycles and put this into perspective for them. I you have two batteries that retailed for $65 ea. and instead of lasting you 3 years they last you 4 you will have saved $11. If they lasted you 5 years you would have saved $18. That is hardly an economic consideration for not keeping one as a backup. Failure to be able to start the engine at the wrong moment could cost you the boat. Monitor you batteries, their usage and plan the recharging. We do extensive coastal cruising in our area which encompasses the west coast of Florida, the Keys and the Bahamas and when we are on the go we use refrigeration 24/7, navigation lights, instruments, and radios as needed. We compensate by recharging batteries at night either with shore power at a marina or a generator at anchor. If we make a night passage we will motor sail for at least 5 hours to gain ground and keep batteries up. We frequently will throw in a third battery as a backup if we feel we may need to combine and use the capacity of the two primary banks. Balance your input and your output and you'll be fine. Stuff happens as anyone who has inavertedly left a 12V refrigerator on a couple of days well knows.
 
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