MacGregor 25 Classification

Giro

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Jul 23, 2019
79
MacGregor MacGregor 25 Monterey
I’ve owned my MacGregor 25 for decades and still have never gotten an answer to a simple question:
Is a MacGregor 25 considered to be a one design sailboat?
If it isn’t, what would it be classified as?
No debasing comments please as I know there are many sailors out there who have many disparaging things to say about MacGregor sailboats.
Looking forward to any respectful comments.
Thank you.
 
Jun 29, 2010
1,287
Beneteau First 235 Lake Minnetonka, MN
Why would it be? Is there an official set of rules in regards to racing them? Is there an association that sets these rules and enforces them? Where are the fleets that race nothing but M 25's? If one would race it, it would probably be in PHRF and assigned a handicap. Not sure the point of your question. Its a sailboat that people sail and if it's raced, it would be in a handicap fleet.
 
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Giro

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Jul 23, 2019
79
MacGregor MacGregor 25 Monterey
Wow. I guess you told me. I guess I’m going to have to make sure of what questions I ask, in the future, because there are some highly sophisticated sailors out there and people, like myself, should never submit such low level, silly questions. I guess I should consider myself honored to have received a response. Please accept my apologies as well as my sincere appreciation.
 
Jan 19, 2010
12,362
Hobie 16 & Rhodes 22 Skeeter Charleston
Hey @Giro! I don't think @cb32863 was trying to be a smart ass. I read it as someone thinking out loud. I used to own a Mac 22 and so I get the thin skin that comes with all of the Mac-haters. Magregor sailboats offer a lot for what you pay. I loved mine. It was more like camping inside but I did a LOT of camping on that boat...

Anyway, I don't think you were being dissed.
 

Ward H

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Nov 7, 2011
3,645
Catalina 30 Mk II Barnegat, NJ
I’m not a racer but isn’t the term One Design meant to indicate that all of the boats were built to a standard design? No options? So racers would be competing against each other rather than boats of varying design?
VS say, my C30 which was offered in fin keel, wing keel, standard rig, tall rig, etc? And that would be where PHRF racing comes into play?
 
Jun 29, 2010
1,287
Beneteau First 235 Lake Minnetonka, MN
Wow. I guess you told me. I guess I’m going to have to make sure of what questions I ask, in the future, because there are some highly sophisticated sailors out there and people, like myself, should never submit such low level, silly questions. I guess I should consider myself honored to have received a response. Please accept my apologies as well as my sincere appreciation.
Relax, was doing as @rgranger said. Therse are the questions one asks in regards to one design. I think your skin needs thickening. :huh:
 
Oct 31, 2017
5
Macgregor 25 Somerville
I’ve owned my MacGregor 25 for decades and still have never gotten an answer to a simple question:
Is a MacGregor 25 considered to be a one design sailboat?
If it isn’t, what would it be classified as?
No debasing comments please as I know there are many sailors out there who have many disparaging things to say about MacGregor sailboats.
Looking forward to any respectful comments.
Thank you.
Hi Giro,
The simple answer is, yes. Yep, yes siree, aye, and affirmative. MacGregor is absolutely a, "One-Design" sailboat, it is a class boat, it has a PHRF / Rating and handicaps. I'm not sure how many owners race the MacGregor 25s, I might try with the yacht club races in Provincetown, MA where I keep my boat, but I haven't tried racing my boat yet.

You can research yourself online anytime if you would like verification. Here are a few things to consider while starting your research:
PHRF (Performance Handicap Racing Fleet). The PHRF rating developed from rating systems used in the 1940.

I find US Sailing to have good starting information, for the boat class look-up try this link and have a look at the attached photos following below.
Here is the PHRF stuff:
I'm in New England, I've never tried to join our fleet, but apparently, there is a large one, with 97 members? I'll have to try to find it!
Here is some info on the handicapping listed on the PHRF New England website:
The Base handicap listed for MacGregor 25 is: MACGREGOR 25 231 (she's not considered a very fast racer!)
Here is a definition of, "One-Design"
Let me and all of us know if you do any racing. I think that a lightweight boat like MacGregor 25 should do extremely well, and far better than a 231 handicap, in long-distance races. I don't think that racing around marks is quite the thing for our girl, though she'd do fine I think.
MacGregor 25 Class Lookup - US Sailing.png


MacGregor 25 One Design Central - US Sailing.png
 

Giro

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Jul 23, 2019
79
MacGregor MacGregor 25 Monterey
RichNils provided us with a thoughtful, comprehensive and intelligent answer to my original question and I truly congratulate such effort. And, I sincerely thank RichNils for the answer.
 
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May 17, 2004
5,025
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
So, although there is a PHRF base rating for the model, it does not appear to be in the US Sailing One Design Central class list. That’s the case with most boats - PHRF has standard classes with a base rating for a given model, then tailors the rating based on a boat’s specific configuration. One Design classes prescribe very specific rules for boats to comply with if they intend to race in One Design competition. Look at the J-24 Class Rule for example at http://www.j24class.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/J24-Class-Rules-2019.pdf - 45 pages of exacting detail on how a boat must be constructed, equipped, and configured. If you don’t comply with the rule you can still get a PHRF handicap, PHRF will just adjust your individual rating based on how they expect your deviation to affect your performance. But you can’t show up to a J-24 One Design regatta and sail your modified version. As part of the One Design class there are measurers to validate that you comply with the rule and issue One Design measurement certificates.

The MacGregor 25 has no such overriding one design rule, at least based on its absence from the US Sailing list. There is a standard configuration that came from the factory, and PHRF uses that as the class definition to set the base handicap. But there are no One Design constraints, no official regattas, no measurers, etc, or at least none that US Sailing recognizes to distinguish it as a One Design class.
 
Apr 11, 2020
708
MacGregor 26s Scott's Landing, Grapevine TX
Makes sense. From the website:

"One design is a form of racing where all boats are virtually identical or similar in design. Class-legal boats race each other without any handicap calculations, start at the same time, and the winner is the first to cross the finish line."

I suppose that works for a lot of people. I prefer things a little more chaotic.:cool:
 
Oct 31, 2017
5
Macgregor 25 Somerville
So, although there is a PHRF base rating for the model, it does not appear to be in the US Sailing One Design Central class list. That’s the case with most boats - PHRF has standard classes with a base rating for a given model, then tailors the rating based on a boat’s specific configuration. One Design classes prescribe very specific rules for boats to comply with if they intend to race in One Design competition. Look at the J-24 Class Rule for example at http://www.j24class.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/J24-Class-Rules-2019.pdf - 45 pages of exacting detail on how a boat must be constructed, equipped, and configured. If you don’t comply with the rule you can still get a PHRF handicap, PHRF will just adjust your individual rating based on how they expect your deviation to affect your performance. But you can’t show up to a J-24 One Design regatta and sail your modified version. As part of the One Design class there are measurers to validate that you comply with the rule and issue One Design measurement certificates.

The MacGregor 25 has no such overriding one design rule, at least based on its absence from the US Sailing list. There is a standard configuration that came from the factory, and PHRF uses that as the class definition to set the base handicap. But there are no One Design constraints, no official regattas, no measurers, etc, or at least none that US Sailing recognizes to distinguish it as a One Design class.
Hi David Sailor,

You're correct, of course, about the J24s and their specific racing design rules. I used to race both the J22s and J24s. They are great boats. I find the performance of the J24 and the MacGregor 25 to be pretty similar, actually. The Mac can sustain surfing, which is both lively and remarkably uncomfortable, but really fast, if you keep up the factory main and jib in over 17 knots of wind, even against the weather. I've seen 8 and 9 knots over the ground on my GPS while close-hauled in 20 knots in my MacGregor 25. The J22 or J24 can sustain hydroplaning if you're willing to fly the (in-my-time) rule-compliant symmetrical chute above about 12+ knots of wind. Both are great boats! I'd take the J24 or J22 for club racing, over the MacGregor anytime. That's what those boats are for. I've sailed and raced, Solings, Sonars, Rhodes 19s, and my first boat, a Douglas Flying Scot.

All of my boats have been, "one-design" sailboats, including my MacGregor 25, @SailingKymopoleia. The Classic MacGregor Sailors don't have an active, race-minded organization that is detailing and documenting their class rules, but we could do that. I'm not even sure that there is an organization at all. We could join US Sailing as a group and we could become listed as a one-design and we could publish our detailed class rules and submit a class profile. Maybe we should, but I suspect that MacGregor Sailors are more interested in exploring, gunkholing, sailboat camping, and coastal cruising in an extremely capable shoal draft trailer sailor than they are interested in racing around buoys in the harbor. Our boats are not very good at that kind of thing, anyway.
MacGregor 25s are still a One-Design Sailboat. It doesn't matter that no one really cares that much about documentation or racing, or that no one really does anything with racing. "Maybe we should? There must be three or four thousand of the total 7,000 of the boats made, that are still swimming?

The Performance Handicaps are subjective, until a particular class has lots of recorded performance reading data available. MacGregor 25 handicaps would likely change for MacGregor 25s if anyone would seriously race one (the current rating is really high!). I don't think that many MacGregor Sailors enter their boats in US Sailing sanctioned races? Anyway, if I want to race, I will have to apply to the authority of the race to adjust my rating. I have more sail area than any of the standard boats upon which the ratings are based. I have a mast top rig and bowsprit, with two headsails like a "slutter," I also have some rig modifications. I would submit my dimensions, like any boat owner can do and then the basic handicap is adjusted by the race officials. Time would tell, I'm not sure that MacGregor 25s have much data because they are not raced often.

Any road up, Dave, it is a great discussion. Your points are all valid and important. You make me want to organize the classic MacGregor owners and enter a few sanctioned races! Instead though, honestly, I think that I'll add a pressure water system and a proper marine toilet so that my gunkholing and sailboat camping are more comfortable.
 
Apr 11, 2020
708
MacGregor 26s Scott's Landing, Grapevine TX
There seem to be two types of sailors - serious racing sailors and everybody else.

Racing boats that are not designed for racing can be a frustrating endeavor. We buy our boats based on a matrix of criteria, and end up with a floating compromise. Being predominantly guys, the penchant for performance and competition usually creeps in, and we want to take our floating Winnebagos out for a race. I am no different.

My slip-neighbors invited me for a sail on their Colgate 26 the other day, and while it is no J-boat, it outshines my 26S in terms of overall performance. Surprisingly, the owner, an experienced racer by his account, seemed to me to be not as proficient as I would expect in terms of finding the optimum trim for his sails. Maybe I know less than I think I know. I have concluded that two things might accrue to my favor in terms of racing; the 222 rating PHRF that seems to be the average for the 26S, and my ability as a sailor. As time goes on, strategy may come into play as well.

I sincerely hope that I can avoid becoming an avid racer. It's an expensive hobby!
 
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Giro

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Jul 23, 2019
79
MacGregor MacGregor 25 Monterey
I would like to thank RichNils for the thoroughly thought-out feedback. His contribution to this forum, and others like his, have restored my confidence in what it means to be a sailor helping fellow sailors find answers to legitimate questions.
Giro