Over the Labor Day weekend I looked over a 1968 Bristol 29 Sailboat. This boat has been out of the water for about 8 years. It is well covered, and I saw no signs of any leaking under the tarp and in the cabin. The electronics (LORAN, VHF etc) have been taken out and stored inside, along with the sails and rigging. The mast and boom are outside, uncovered. The boat has an Atomic 4 gas engine, not run since. He wants $9500 for her. My questions are these: Being a sailing neophite, and not rich, what do I need to know to make an intelligent descision on whether or not to get this boat? What should I look for, structurally? There are no blisters on the hull. I am willing to do some work (I am not a mechanic, but semi intelligent), but what would you expect needs to be done before she is put in water? At approx what cost? I am at least an hour away from the nearest place I can dock her. Thank you for helping!!!
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
J
Jim Anzalone
The boat has an Atomic 4 gas engine
This is the big probelm area. Make sure it runs! You should get it checked by a profession. It is expensive to replace! Also, Check the winches, sails, cleats and electronic. Check for deck leaks and underwater through hull fittings. This is a good strong over build boat. Good thing the guy had it covers. Pull on the life line stansions and make sure they are good and tight. Make sure the deck is not spongy. Jim
This is the big probelm area. Make sure it runs! You should get it checked by a profession. It is expensive to replace! Also, Check the winches, sails, cleats and electronic. Check for deck leaks and underwater through hull fittings. This is a good strong over build boat. Good thing the guy had it covers. Pull on the life line stansions and make sure they are good and tight. Make sure the deck is not spongy. Jim
J
Jim Wallace
Buying an older boat
Buying an older boat, Jeff, is comparable to getting married. It's not the initial investment, but the upkeep that will get to you. Get in touch with someone in your area that's familiar with boats and take them along to look at it. If you decide to buy it, write a contract holding some of the money back to insure everything, as the owner says, is in working order.
Buying an older boat, Jeff, is comparable to getting married. It's not the initial investment, but the upkeep that will get to you. Get in touch with someone in your area that's familiar with boats and take them along to look at it. If you decide to buy it, write a contract holding some of the money back to insure everything, as the owner says, is in working order.
S
ssmith
Some Suggestions
Hi - #1 - Buy and read Don Casey's book, "Inspecting the Aging Sailboat." #2 - If you still decide to purchase this boat, get it inspected by a Marine Surveyor ($14 -20/ft). A survey may be required for financing or insurance.
Hi - #1 - Buy and read Don Casey's book, "Inspecting the Aging Sailboat." #2 - If you still decide to purchase this boat, get it inspected by a Marine Surveyor ($14 -20/ft). A survey may be required for financing or insurance.
B
Bill
I agree.
Having read "inspecting.." my surveyor found signifigant issues with some older boats I looked at. It was money well spent and also needed for insurance. Bill
Having read "inspecting.." my surveyor found signifigant issues with some older boats I looked at. It was money well spent and also needed for insurance. Bill
G
George B.
Buyer Beware
The good news is you don't have to pay to get the boat hauled for a survey. The bad news is you are looking at expenses related to both long term deferred maintenance (neglect) and age. It sounds like the owner wants to sell it to you in an "as is" condition on the hard, thereby putting all the risks on you for recommissioning and restoring the boat to a sailable condition. A survey is a must! But be forewarned, with so many systems inoperable, the survey may not catch all the potential problems. The best way to find out if everything works is a test sail which you can't do. It is the single best way to find out if sails are any good. One way to find out if the owner knows of a significant latent problem, is to get him to agree on the fair market value as set by the surveyor or to agree to fix all the surveyed problems out of the sales price. This is a fairly common practice and you'll find out the owner's state of mind in a hurry. A boat of this age and price in Northern California will be in the water, sailable, all systems operational and generally in fair to good condition. You are the only one who has actually seen the boat and talked to the owner so only you can determine the boat's condition, not I. The following may be (overly) pessimistic things to look out for. But heck, now is the time to be a little pessimistic. Deferred maintenance items: The batteries probably are sulfated and won't hold a significant charge. You may not have enough power to test the electrical systems. Replace. Fuel left in a tank for eight years has decomposed to a state where mere fuel polishing is insufficient. At a minimum, you'll need to dispose the old fuel and core the tank. I would replace tank, fuel lines and filters immediately (bitter first hand experience here). Atomic Fours are quirky at best and this one probably wasn't laid up for multi year storage (cosmoline and oil) and most probably will need a complete overhaul soon. I'd bite the bullet and re-engine with diesel right now (after all, you're also replacing the fuel system). Eight years of accumulated grime probably has weakened your running rigging (halyards, topping lifts etc.) to the point of replacement. Eight years of high salt air humidity (poor or no ventilation) may have corroded some of the electrical contacts and/or have created a mold problem in the cabin. After eight years, the bottom paint is all cured out and will have to be sanded off and new barrier coat/bottom paint applied. You'll also need to break out the gelcoat restorer and rubbing compound for the topsides. Age related items: Ten to twenty year old electrical items don't have much of a resale value. (Why use Loran when GPS so accurate and cheap?) Thirty four year old standing rigging should be inspected closely and (potentially) replaced. Likewise, the sails may be way past their prime. The thru-hulls are probably bronze and should be checked for oxidation. Consider that all the caulked joints have lost their elasticity and should be rebedded. Make sure that the keel bolts are properly torqued and not corroded. Count on steering gear being worn. As you can see, in a nightmare scenario, you may be looking at another five to seven grand to fix all the the problems. Hopefully, not everything will require fixing or replacing. You should set aside budget for doing a fair amount of recomissioning work and figure a grand a year for the first couple of years to do maintenance and repairs, in particular, getting that Atomic Four to run reliably after such a long lay-up. Enough said. I like the old Bristol boats. They are well founded and sturdy. The one I know here in the Bay is like a little sherman tank when the wind picks up. In a restored condition, it will be a real head turner and fun boat for years to come. Hopefully, the seller will be able to work with you on achieving a fair price for the boat. If not, I know of a '79 Irwin 30, radar, autohelm, spinnaker gear, etc for $17k…
The good news is you don't have to pay to get the boat hauled for a survey. The bad news is you are looking at expenses related to both long term deferred maintenance (neglect) and age. It sounds like the owner wants to sell it to you in an "as is" condition on the hard, thereby putting all the risks on you for recommissioning and restoring the boat to a sailable condition. A survey is a must! But be forewarned, with so many systems inoperable, the survey may not catch all the potential problems. The best way to find out if everything works is a test sail which you can't do. It is the single best way to find out if sails are any good. One way to find out if the owner knows of a significant latent problem, is to get him to agree on the fair market value as set by the surveyor or to agree to fix all the surveyed problems out of the sales price. This is a fairly common practice and you'll find out the owner's state of mind in a hurry. A boat of this age and price in Northern California will be in the water, sailable, all systems operational and generally in fair to good condition. You are the only one who has actually seen the boat and talked to the owner so only you can determine the boat's condition, not I. The following may be (overly) pessimistic things to look out for. But heck, now is the time to be a little pessimistic. Deferred maintenance items: The batteries probably are sulfated and won't hold a significant charge. You may not have enough power to test the electrical systems. Replace. Fuel left in a tank for eight years has decomposed to a state where mere fuel polishing is insufficient. At a minimum, you'll need to dispose the old fuel and core the tank. I would replace tank, fuel lines and filters immediately (bitter first hand experience here). Atomic Fours are quirky at best and this one probably wasn't laid up for multi year storage (cosmoline and oil) and most probably will need a complete overhaul soon. I'd bite the bullet and re-engine with diesel right now (after all, you're also replacing the fuel system). Eight years of accumulated grime probably has weakened your running rigging (halyards, topping lifts etc.) to the point of replacement. Eight years of high salt air humidity (poor or no ventilation) may have corroded some of the electrical contacts and/or have created a mold problem in the cabin. After eight years, the bottom paint is all cured out and will have to be sanded off and new barrier coat/bottom paint applied. You'll also need to break out the gelcoat restorer and rubbing compound for the topsides. Age related items: Ten to twenty year old electrical items don't have much of a resale value. (Why use Loran when GPS so accurate and cheap?) Thirty four year old standing rigging should be inspected closely and (potentially) replaced. Likewise, the sails may be way past their prime. The thru-hulls are probably bronze and should be checked for oxidation. Consider that all the caulked joints have lost their elasticity and should be rebedded. Make sure that the keel bolts are properly torqued and not corroded. Count on steering gear being worn. As you can see, in a nightmare scenario, you may be looking at another five to seven grand to fix all the the problems. Hopefully, not everything will require fixing or replacing. You should set aside budget for doing a fair amount of recomissioning work and figure a grand a year for the first couple of years to do maintenance and repairs, in particular, getting that Atomic Four to run reliably after such a long lay-up. Enough said. I like the old Bristol boats. They are well founded and sturdy. The one I know here in the Bay is like a little sherman tank when the wind picks up. In a restored condition, it will be a real head turner and fun boat for years to come. Hopefully, the seller will be able to work with you on achieving a fair price for the boat. If not, I know of a '79 Irwin 30, radar, autohelm, spinnaker gear, etc for $17k…
B
Bill
You are right, just don't dis the A4
George has a lot right but don't give up on the engine. A4's are great, my total rebuild was 2K and I don;t have to wory about how my 12 Hp has to get me through a tough place. Bill
George has a lot right but don't give up on the engine. A4's are great, my total rebuild was 2K and I don;t have to wory about how my 12 Hp has to get me through a tough place. Bill
M
Mark Swart
Too much money!!
That seems like a steep price, especially for a boat with an Atomic 4. Look at boattraderonline for comparably aged boat prices, or check the book value at nadaguides.com. Don't worry about insulting the owner with a low offer -- if his boat has been sitting for eight years, he obviously doesn't care that much about it. Biggest thing before going in the water is to get the bottom painted and get the engine running. The rest you can probably do at your slip. I have heard good and bad things about A4 engines, but be prepared to work on it or get it paid to work on. I would expect fuel system problems, from varnish in the tank/filter to maybe the carb, depending on how it was prepped when it was stored. Still, no matter what, the tank will probably be iffy and need to be cleaned or replaced. Have the sails been in it the whole time? BIG investment if you have to replace them. Look for mold and mildew, stains, etc. If they are dirty, they can probably be cleaned and used. Outside hardware is probably fine, if the halyards/sheets are black, you can put them in the washing machine and get them usable again. How is the exterior gelcoat? E-mail me if you want to talk at swartm@earthlink.net. I just bought a 71 Cheoy Lee 30, that was stored for a few years, so I'm going through a similar experience. (But I am really enjoying it!) -Mark
That seems like a steep price, especially for a boat with an Atomic 4. Look at boattraderonline for comparably aged boat prices, or check the book value at nadaguides.com. Don't worry about insulting the owner with a low offer -- if his boat has been sitting for eight years, he obviously doesn't care that much about it. Biggest thing before going in the water is to get the bottom painted and get the engine running. The rest you can probably do at your slip. I have heard good and bad things about A4 engines, but be prepared to work on it or get it paid to work on. I would expect fuel system problems, from varnish in the tank/filter to maybe the carb, depending on how it was prepped when it was stored. Still, no matter what, the tank will probably be iffy and need to be cleaned or replaced. Have the sails been in it the whole time? BIG investment if you have to replace them. Look for mold and mildew, stains, etc. If they are dirty, they can probably be cleaned and used. Outside hardware is probably fine, if the halyards/sheets are black, you can put them in the washing machine and get them usable again. How is the exterior gelcoat? E-mail me if you want to talk at swartm@earthlink.net. I just bought a 71 Cheoy Lee 30, that was stored for a few years, so I'm going through a similar experience. (But I am really enjoying it!) -Mark
J
Jeff Walls
Thanks!
I want to thank all of your for your time and information. I agree with Mark about the price, I want to be fair, but I don't want to be taken advantage of. As I am in Lancaster, PA, there is a A4 shop in Harrisburg (about 45 min away), so that is a plus. I am thinking about having it brought home and put in a barn for the winter, so I can work on it. Or in the yard. Neighbors will LOVE that. Anybody have an idea what it costs to transport about 100 miles? Or can I rent a trailor?
I want to thank all of your for your time and information. I agree with Mark about the price, I want to be fair, but I don't want to be taken advantage of. As I am in Lancaster, PA, there is a A4 shop in Harrisburg (about 45 min away), so that is a plus. I am thinking about having it brought home and put in a barn for the winter, so I can work on it. Or in the yard. Neighbors will LOVE that. Anybody have an idea what it costs to transport about 100 miles? Or can I rent a trailor?
E
Ed Schenck
Here's some.
Having an old boat myself I am drawn to these kinds of questions. In the Related Link you can see that your price is not out of line. You can look at the pictures to see how yours compares. A survey goes without question. And the deal must either include a motoring/sailing test or a large escrow set aside. You are right to try to get the boat home. I have a 90 minute drive each way. And I only get about eight hours a week to either sail or do the work. Twenty hours a week is not enough for an old boat. If mine was 29' instead of 37' I would buy an old flatbed trailer(lowboy) and build the cradle right on it. See the Forum Archives, I think for H33 and trailering. You should find some pictures. Have fun!
Having an old boat myself I am drawn to these kinds of questions. In the Related Link you can see that your price is not out of line. You can look at the pictures to see how yours compares. A survey goes without question. And the deal must either include a motoring/sailing test or a large escrow set aside. You are right to try to get the boat home. I have a 90 minute drive each way. And I only get about eight hours a week to either sail or do the work. Twenty hours a week is not enough for an old boat. If mine was 29' instead of 37' I would buy an old flatbed trailer(lowboy) and build the cradle right on it. See the Forum Archives, I think for H33 and trailering. You should find some pictures. Have fun!
T
Tom Hamilton
maybe smaller
Perhaps consider something smaller with an outboard if that can work for you. I bought a San Juan 23 some years ago now with a trailer and 1 yr old 10hp outboard for $3000. I have slowly added this and that. Used the original 1980 sails until this year when I got new ones with roller furling and all. If you are new at this and a smaller boat will work it may be best. First it will cost less to buy, maintain and upgrade. Second it will give you some time to learn what you really want. You have to be out on the water a fair bit to even get any real notion of what you really want. Third much easier to singlehand. You would be surprised at how hard it is to find crew when the wind is blowing and you want to go on a spur of the moment sail.
Perhaps consider something smaller with an outboard if that can work for you. I bought a San Juan 23 some years ago now with a trailer and 1 yr old 10hp outboard for $3000. I have slowly added this and that. Used the original 1980 sails until this year when I got new ones with roller furling and all. If you are new at this and a smaller boat will work it may be best. First it will cost less to buy, maintain and upgrade. Second it will give you some time to learn what you really want. You have to be out on the water a fair bit to even get any real notion of what you really want. Third much easier to singlehand. You would be surprised at how hard it is to find crew when the wind is blowing and you want to go on a spur of the moment sail.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.