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Line upgrade

mm2347

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Oct 21, 2008
238
oday 222 niagara
can anyone tell me how to figure the pull at the clew, tack, and head of my main or jib. I need to change my lines and some hardware for the upcomming season. Also any rec.on what line to use.
 
Nov 9, 2012
2,499
Oday 192 Lake Nockamixon
MM, don't know what you mean by "figure the pull at clew, tack, and head of sails"… Are you trying to find loads for running rigging?

What's your budget? Do we get to outfit a 25 year old cruiser with high tech racing lines? :D

I'm assuming for a cruiser like a 222, you'll probably want to go somewhat budget. If you're racing that 222, good on ya, but you probably aren't.

I'd use 5/16" (8mm) New England VPC for halyards. Original spec for an O'day was probably 3/8" (10mm) double braid polyester, but the VPC blended core should have less stretch. The site store specs 5/16" Sampson XLS, but I would NEVER use poly double braid for halyards, it's like trying to tension rubber bands.

For sheets, I'd go with 10mm double braid polyester such as New England Sta-Set for your main, and possibly 8mm for jib sheets. The running rigging calculator here in the website store specs 5/16" (8mm) Sampson XLS, which is also a double braid polyester. I personally like a larger line for the main sheet, and a slightly smaller line for the 110% jib, so that the lines aren't quite as heavy hanging the jib in light wind.

1/4" (6mm) VPC is probably fine for your control lines for the main, such as outhaul, downhaul, and reefing lines. Nettles, the lines that tie the excess sail to the boom when you are reefed can be any 1/4" soft polyester line.

There are less expensive double braids, such as Novabraid, available from Sailcare.com.

I, myself, appear to have more money than brains, and I have 1/4" Vectran cored halyards, and 3/8" and 5/16" New England Salsa line for sheets. I use 1/4" VPC for outhaul and reefing lines.
 
Jun 9, 2008
1,648
- -- -Bayfield
I like Samson cordage, but use whatever line your local chandlery has. Why make such an easy decision so complicated? You don't have an America's Cup Racing machine. Just use a low stretch line for halyards. Your sheaves probably take 5/16" or 3/8". For sheets you don't need more than 3/8" which might have a better feel than 5/16" because of the size for the grip, but 5/16 is certainly strong enough. Samson has XLS for halyards or Trophy Braid for sheets (softer cover), but you can use the XLS for sheets too, but I wouldn't use the Trophy for halyards. If you want to put an eye in for your shackles, Samson is easy to splice.
 

mm2347

.
Oct 21, 2008
238
oday 222 niagara
Thank You all for your help. The easy decision became somewhat complicated as soon as I opened a couple of catalogs and found prices from $0.28 to over $3.00 per foot. Info. given is difficult to compare. Some specs. given are strengths at breaking loads, some are working loads, some give stretch at 20% others at 30% and some brands nothing at all. (I live over 150 miles from anyplace so info this time of year is limited to what is in print.)
Last season (my 2nd year of sailing)I replaced an the original mainsail halyard (1985) with new 3/8 sta-set that lists a 2.80% stretch at 20% breaking strength and found a big improvement. It now it becomes more complicated as I believe line stretch makes a difference and I will lengthen the lines bringing them to the cockpit.
 

mm2347

.
Oct 21, 2008
238
oday 222 niagara
Brian: I found a formula to calculate the pull at the clue of a sail at a given wind speed. I though if I could come up w/ the numbers for the head and tack as well I could compare these w/ the lines available and spend the dollars that are necessary for me to be satisfied.
As to Dollars and brains--If anyone had brains they wouldnt have a boat.
 
Nov 9, 2012
2,499
Oday 192 Lake Nockamixon
Halyard Size Calculator

I once found this Halyard Size Calculator Excel spreadsheet somewhere on the interwebs. Perhaps it will help you all…

Dangit, the forum file attachment feature won't allow me to attach an Excell file.

Private message me with email address and I'll send it to you.
 
Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
I think 3/8" line is overkill for that size of boat and I would use 5/16" all the way around, but some think the 3/8" "hands" a bit better.... I have never seen an issue with handing the 5/16". 5/16" line will almost measure 3/8 of an inch... and 3/8" measures bigger.

too big of line and the line wont run freely thru the blocks and so you have to manually push the boom across when tacking.... that is one of the most aggravating yet easily preventable problems when buying new running rigging.


as for how much load you will have... that depends on how you sail it, but as a general idea of what you need on a boat that size, if you figure out how much you can pull with your feet braced, times that by three for the halyards, and about times six for the sheets....

i wouldnt waste the money or the time buying less than yacht quality line.. unless its in your budget and plan to replace it soon anyway.... I went that route once to keep myself within my monthly budget and to get out on the water as quickly as possible, knowing i would upgrade within a few months.
all it did was increase the total overall cost of my running rigging, and i was NOT happy with the amount of stretch in the NON sailboat quality line.... when I got the right stuff on it, it was a night and day difference....

there are good deals on the sta-set or equal quality line, and sometimes its not on the first or second page of results that is produced by your internet search engine.. you have to search hard to get the good deals and have patience. the deals are there if saving money means more than the time it takes to find them.... its all a trade off.
 
Nov 9, 2012
2,499
Oday 192 Lake Nockamixon
In the case of a 22 foot cruiser, you don't have excessive considerations of line loading. They're small sails, it's not a VOR 70 we're talking about here, or a Banc Populaire trimaran carrying crazy amounts of sail to set crossing records. Going oversize with inferior line (eg. 3/8" Sta-set) to reduce stretch introduces problems, such as weight aloft, cost, problems with sheaves, etc. Getting a higher tech line with less stretch might cost less, and certainly will give better results. I'm sure I didn't need to spend for a Vectran core, but I did. I hang around with racers too much. 5/16" blended core VPC would have worked, and cost me less. I'm slowly training myself not to go for extremes in material or hardware choices. Of course, the next boat in line to restore is a racing dinghy, and I'm sure I'll go all stupid with stripped core high tech lines for halyards, and other Dyneema lines for control lines, etc...
 

Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
7,455
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
You can build a "tapered" halyard... dyneema core with a polyester cover over the working part... for about $1.10/ft. Full length 3/16" amsteel core, the back half covered with 5/16 Samson LS. You use the polyester core of the LS as a messenger to fish the amsteel into the cover. Follow the instructions on Samson website to complete a "bury" or "taper" splice.... where the cover is buried into the core. Finish the shackle end off with a long loop "luggage tag" eye splice that will allow for easy removal of the shackle. What you end up is a super strong, no stretch halyard for more than half the price of stripping the cover of Hi teck doubles like Samson Warpspeed. The resultant halyard will have more that double the strength of a 3/8" all polyester, like sta set.
 
Nov 9, 2012
2,499
Oday 192 Lake Nockamixon
Joe, I will certainly do this for the little boat when I finally restore and re-rig it. That would work ideally. Thanks for the walk through.

I'm also considering using a toggle to attach the halyard to the headboard, instead of a shackle. It looks like it would be fun to play with: http://l-36.com/halyard_toggle.php

You can build a "tapered" halyard... dyneema core with a polyester cover over the working part... for about $1.10/ft. Full length 3/16" amsteel core, the back half covered with 5/16 Samson LS. You use the polyester core of the LS as a messenger to fish the amsteel into the cover. Follow the instructions on Samson website to complete a "bury" or "taper" splice.... where the cover is buried into the core. Finish the shackle end off with a long loop "luggage tag" eye splice that will allow for easy removal of the shackle. What you end up is a super strong, no stretch halyard for more than half the price of stripping the cover of Hi teck doubles like Samson Warpspeed. The resultant halyard will have more that double the strength of a 3/8" all polyester, like sta set.
 
Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
Joe, I will certainly do this for the little boat when I finally restore and re-rig it. That would work ideally. Thanks for the walk through.

I'm also considering using a toggle to attach the halyard to the headboard, instead of a shackle. It looks like it would be fun to play with: http://l-36.com/halyard_toggle.php
an alternative to the toggle, is using the tag end of line itself as the toggle...

take the tag end of the line and bend it back on itself for about 6-7inches.... then pass the loop thru the head cringle......
then take the tag end around and pass thru the loop that is protruding... pull the halyard tight.....
you can also use more Tag end and make a loop in it also and pass this loop thru the loop protruding from the cringle, filling the loop and in turn, making a larger "toggle"......

with this method, there is no fuss, no eye to wear over time, no toggle failure or breakage, and no time spent building and perfecting it.... although without this last one, it may take some of the fun out of it....
its as basic as it gets and as secure as any other, yet will easily be able to be taken out when required.
 
Nov 9, 2012
2,499
Oday 192 Lake Nockamixon
Thanks for your thoughts, Centerline. However, I think one of the primary takeaways from the L-36 article is that the line pull from the toggle method he illustrates comes from the top of the headboard, whereas the method you suggest, and the alternate he illustrates, causes the halyard to pull from the side of the headboard. To be fair, your method (which was the one I learned) can be used with buttons, beads, toggles, and the line tag end.

For smaller loads, this is probably not a big problem, but for a bigger sail with higher halyard loads, it might cause binding in the mast slot.
 

mm2347

.
Oct 21, 2008
238
oday 222 niagara
sheet load

Please share it with us.
Formula for Sheet Load: (Windspeed) squared x 0.004 x (Sail Area in Square Feet) equals sheet load at Clew in pounds. Note: only applies to end of boom mainsheet, jib sheets, spinnaker guys and spinnaker sheets