Hopefully, this is the right place to seek some insight on boat integrity. After about 14 seasons sailing a 16 foot dingy on the great lakes, I am contemplating my first keel boat. There are a number of boats in the 30ft range I am considering (C30, C&C30mkI, H31) and concluded that the C30 is likely the best dollar-value (the C&C is a bit smallish below decks, and the Hunter seems prone to "oil-canning" in the forward hull). However, I dismissed the Catalina after coming across a large number of posts regarding separation of the keel to hull joint. This seems, perhaps, partly due to rotting of the imbedded wood member in the keel stub combined with the high loading of the joint spread over a relatively small surface area when heeled. Many owners say this isn't a big deal, just re-torque the keel bolts and re-finish the joint every spring. However, it strikes me as a failure of the structural integrity which could lead to failure of the keel bolts if they rust out due to exposure to water. Digging a little more, I am finding the issue seems to affect many makes of boat. So, along with hull blisters, deck de-lamination and whatever else, is this just a fact of life with fin keels of all stripes? Or are some boats more prone than others due to the engineering of this critical area? Thank You; John
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Foam core a plus
A grounding can cause the keel to seperate. Or loose bolts, will also cause the joint to open. Any movements will make the joint open. Most of the time a you will see crack around this joint. The keel and stub will flex and crack the paint. Not a big deal. With the boat sitting on the keel tighten the bolts and fill the crack before appling new bottom paint. Getting a boat that has a foam core in this area or no core (solid glass) is good idea. You will not have the wet wood to deal with. Good Luck!
A grounding can cause the keel to seperate. Or loose bolts, will also cause the joint to open. Any movements will make the joint open. Most of the time a you will see crack around this joint. The keel and stub will flex and crack the paint. Not a big deal. With the boat sitting on the keel tighten the bolts and fill the crack before appling new bottom paint. Getting a boat that has a foam core in this area or no core (solid glass) is good idea. You will not have the wet wood to deal with. Good Luck!
Try an archive search
on Catalina Smile It's a generally accepted fact that it is NOT a structural issue and is easy to repair. Not enough to change your mind on a C30 compared to the others you've mentioned and the process you've already been through.
on Catalina Smile It's a generally accepted fact that it is NOT a structural issue and is easy to repair. Not enough to change your mind on a C30 compared to the others you've mentioned and the process you've already been through.
catalina keel stub
if it is rotted or starting to, it's not worth the risk since a repair would be a major expense. Catalinas are infamous for keel smiles and the cause could be of the type you suggested or just simple flexing which alot of people seem to put up with. In either case, unless you are wedded to this problem, it seems like a no-brainer to avoid it.
if it is rotted or starting to, it's not worth the risk since a repair would be a major expense. Catalinas are infamous for keel smiles and the cause could be of the type you suggested or just simple flexing which alot of people seem to put up with. In either case, unless you are wedded to this problem, it seems like a no-brainer to avoid it.
Many builders laminated marine plywood
into the keel stub in the 70's & 80's so by looking at other brands it does not isolate you. I know Pearson, O'Day & Catalina all did this. Catalina stopped laminating keel stubs with plywood in 1987. So I would look at 1987 and newer boats if it's a C-30 you want and this issue bothers you. I would not worry about this problem to much as there are thousands of these boats out there (largest production cruiser in existance). I sold my 1977 C-30 about ten years ago and thought the keel stub was on it's last legs then but the current owner is still sailing her and has even hit a few rocks since. I do not know of any reports of a C-30 keel falling off due to the plywood in the keel stub? Do you? Bottom line is buy a boat that has been well cared for and don't worry about it or buy a 1987 or newer.. -Maine Sail http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising
into the keel stub in the 70's & 80's so by looking at other brands it does not isolate you. I know Pearson, O'Day & Catalina all did this. Catalina stopped laminating keel stubs with plywood in 1987. So I would look at 1987 and newer boats if it's a C-30 you want and this issue bothers you. I would not worry about this problem to much as there are thousands of these boats out there (largest production cruiser in existance). I sold my 1977 C-30 about ten years ago and thought the keel stub was on it's last legs then but the current owner is still sailing her and has even hit a few rocks since. I do not know of any reports of a C-30 keel falling off due to the plywood in the keel stub? Do you? Bottom line is buy a boat that has been well cared for and don't worry about it or buy a 1987 or newer.. -Maine Sail http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising
C&C 30
Check out a few C&C 30's. Lead keel, very solid single spreader rig and typically better performance and holds its value better than the C-30 or the Hunter 31's.
Check out a few C&C 30's. Lead keel, very solid single spreader rig and typically better performance and holds its value better than the C-30 or the Hunter 31's.
Basic design
JayTee, No bias here but I just moved up to a CS30 last October. This is the best time to look at boats because they are on the hard in the yard. Catalinas has the keel like a triangle with most of the weight aft. Make sure you look for a 6 pads marine cradle if you care about engineering. Most people fitted a separate pad under the bow to take the load off. If the bow pad were lifted, the Catalinas will fall forward. The clearance between the prop shaft to the hull necessitate the use of smaller props. The worst is the plywood deck core. Plywood wocks water and rot the core. Don't get me wrong, Catalinas are great boats, but plywood can wick moisture across vast distances while end grain balsa core doesn't. I was a big Catalina fan until I came across this CS30 which I bought. CS has their own short comings too. You'll never win. For a new boat, I like the Hunter closly followed by Beneteau. For an old lady, I go for a CS followed by Catalinas. Just my personal feeling.
JayTee, No bias here but I just moved up to a CS30 last October. This is the best time to look at boats because they are on the hard in the yard. Catalinas has the keel like a triangle with most of the weight aft. Make sure you look for a 6 pads marine cradle if you care about engineering. Most people fitted a separate pad under the bow to take the load off. If the bow pad were lifted, the Catalinas will fall forward. The clearance between the prop shaft to the hull necessitate the use of smaller props. The worst is the plywood deck core. Plywood wocks water and rot the core. Don't get me wrong, Catalinas are great boats, but plywood can wick moisture across vast distances while end grain balsa core doesn't. I was a big Catalina fan until I came across this CS30 which I bought. CS has their own short comings too. You'll never win. For a new boat, I like the Hunter closly followed by Beneteau. For an old lady, I go for a CS followed by Catalinas. Just my personal feeling.
The Catalina Smile
Go to the Catalina website, this is really not an issue. Call Catalina up on the phone if you like. Catalina has the highest rate of customer satisfaction because of their helpfulness on the phone. Unlike Hunter, catalina people will discuss problems with older models. I dont know of anyone personally that had a keel separation problem with Catalina,Im not saying it never happened, just that i dont know of anyone. The Catalina Smile, has become somewhat of a joke, but its not a real problem.
Go to the Catalina website, this is really not an issue. Call Catalina up on the phone if you like. Catalina has the highest rate of customer satisfaction because of their helpfulness on the phone. Unlike Hunter, catalina people will discuss problems with older models. I dont know of anyone personally that had a keel separation problem with Catalina,Im not saying it never happened, just that i dont know of anyone. The Catalina Smile, has become somewhat of a joke, but its not a real problem.
I repaired the Smile on a C27
Catalina sold me a kit which was 5 10" lag bolts (wood threads on one end and machine threads on the other. The fix is to drill through the (sometimes bad)plywood and glass in the keel stub into the lead, screw in the lag bolts (they hold really well in lead) and torque down the nuts with big washers to factory specs. Some folks remove the nuts and washers on the keel bolts, cut out the glass over the plywood in the keel stub, dig out all the bad plywood, epoxy in a lot of glass or foam core, then replace the nuts or bolts as necessary. This is not as bad a job as it sounds. I only had one bad keel bolt, but I put in all five replacement bolts anyway, since I was there. If it's a newer boat with stainless keel bolts, just have the yard set it down with a lot of weight on the keel, blocked so the front of the keel is pushed up against the hull, and tighten the keel nuts to factory spec. I Might be tempted to remove the nuts and add big washers or even really good plywood spacers 6" diameter under big washers. I was on the Catalina chatlist for years, and nobody has ever heard of a Catalina keel falling off. If the smile gets bad, water leakes in around the bolts enough to spur the owner to fix it.
Catalina sold me a kit which was 5 10" lag bolts (wood threads on one end and machine threads on the other. The fix is to drill through the (sometimes bad)plywood and glass in the keel stub into the lead, screw in the lag bolts (they hold really well in lead) and torque down the nuts with big washers to factory specs. Some folks remove the nuts and washers on the keel bolts, cut out the glass over the plywood in the keel stub, dig out all the bad plywood, epoxy in a lot of glass or foam core, then replace the nuts or bolts as necessary. This is not as bad a job as it sounds. I only had one bad keel bolt, but I put in all five replacement bolts anyway, since I was there. If it's a newer boat with stainless keel bolts, just have the yard set it down with a lot of weight on the keel, blocked so the front of the keel is pushed up against the hull, and tighten the keel nuts to factory spec. I Might be tempted to remove the nuts and add big washers or even really good plywood spacers 6" diameter under big washers. I was on the Catalina chatlist for years, and nobody has ever heard of a Catalina keel falling off. If the smile gets bad, water leakes in around the bolts enough to spur the owner to fix it.
As it happens …..
….I have an older (1974) C27. I had the cracking occur every season due to the keel flexing. I did the whole rebuild, including replacing the rotted wood core of the keel stump and putting in new keel bolts. It wasn’t difficult in terms of being complicated, but was laborious. This year when I pulled the boat, there's no sign of the cracking along the keel joint and I suspect I won’t have to worry about it for decades. As a side bar, if I recall correctly in 1978 the wood in the stump was upgraded to steel. Ferg
….I have an older (1974) C27. I had the cracking occur every season due to the keel flexing. I did the whole rebuild, including replacing the rotted wood core of the keel stump and putting in new keel bolts. It wasn’t difficult in terms of being complicated, but was laborious. This year when I pulled the boat, there's no sign of the cracking along the keel joint and I suspect I won’t have to worry about it for decades. As a side bar, if I recall correctly in 1978 the wood in the stump was upgraded to steel. Ferg
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