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Hunter 33, started some work

Rabe

.
May 15, 2019
63
Hunter 33 - Cherubini Port Clinton, OH
Today I didn't get much work done, I was selling my old Venture 17 and that took forever! I didn't get to the Marina till 4:30 and it was still 87 degrees. I only got about a good hour of work done but I ground down the bronze through hull for the black water tank.

Man is it a good thing I decided to replace the gate valves and through hulls. As I was working on the waste TH, so much rust just fell out I figure the gate itself disintegrated sometime in the past.

So I got it ground off and I can work it back and forth in rotation. I couldn't get the hose off, though. Any tips on getting the original waste discharge hose off? I couldn't even "rotate" the hose around the nipple.

Also, I started "exploring" the rotten core by the port chain plates. The 1/8" holes I drilled came back with some wet, what I think is, balsa. It turned to particles as I touched it.

I didn't have a few things I needed to work on the deck so I just left it at a few holes drilled. It's obvious why it's rotten; there's silicon all around the chain plates.

I am worried that the core is rotten all the way to the edge, under the toe rail. I don't know how I'm going to handle that. I don't want to remove the toe rail really.

This will be the first time I've ever fiber-glassed anything. I really think I can handle it, but any tips and tricks will be much appreciated.

I order west systems 105, 206 and 209 the pumps 6 ounce cloth.


This is what I've thought about:

Find the boundaries of the rotten core. Cut deck in this boundary - staying 2 inches from edges of anything. Dig out the rotten core. Clean and dry top and bottom fiberglass layers with Acetone. Assembly new core with plywood - nothing bigger than about 3x3 square Dry fit everything.




To lay it up, I am going to use extra slow hardener as close to 70 degrees as I can. With that I should get about a good 30 minutes working time. I want to try and get a chemical bond between the fiberglass and the plywood core.

Should I care too awfully much about getting the chemical bond? 30 minutes still may be cutting it close. I don't want to spray with water if there's blush. And I don't have peel-ply... I didn't find a good price. Is there any great substitutes?

Maybe I'll break it up into small sections, trying to leave exposed epoxied areas to a minimum.


Best regards,

Rick
 

Rabe

.
May 15, 2019
63
Hunter 33 - Cherubini Port Clinton, OH
Maybe a stupid question, but can I replace the core in sections? It's at least 10 feet long.
 
Jun 21, 2004
1,855
Beneteau 343 Slidell, LA
Were those gate valves or ball valves? In either case, its probably best to replace the sanitation hose while you are working on the thru hull fittings and valve. If you are replacing the hose now, simply cut the old hose off the valve. Raritan saniflex hose is the best replacement hose. If you are definitely keeping the old hose, heat the end of the hose where it is attached to the valve to remove it.

On my Hunter 33.5 the deck coring material was 3/4" plywood. Not saying that is the best core replacement material; however, that's what Hunter used for deck coring circa 1988.
 

Rabe

.
May 15, 2019
63
Hunter 33 - Cherubini Port Clinton, OH
Were those gate valves or ball valves? In either case, its probably best to replace the sanitation hose while you are working on the thru hull fittings and valve. If you are replacing the hose now, simply cut the old hose off the valve. Raritan saniflex hose is the best replacement hose. If you are definitely keeping the old hose, heat the end of the hose where it is attached to the valve to remove it.

On my Hunter 33.5 the deck coring material was 3/4" plywood. Not saying that is the best core replacement material; however, that's what Hunter used for deck coring circa 1988.

They are gate valves. The sanitation discharge is a 1 1/2" gate valve with some sort of plastic reduction fitting. At least I think so..

Looking at the GROCO site, I can't find a 1 1/2" thread to 3/4"

I am thinking about replacing the hose to the valve.

It was 81 degrees at 9:30 am this morning. I got out there and got the gate valve out but I left the fitting in the hose.

The rest of the day I started cutting into the deck, but I didn't have a pry bar. With the screw drivers I had I tried to get the first section off the core. I was not successful. So I put sealant in all the holes I drilled (it's going to rain Wed) and put Gorilla tape on the cuts I made.

I was able to remove the chainplates. A couple bolts were cross threaded or something, I broke one bolt and almost an other. But they are all out and I'm going to replace bolt. I think I'll over drill and fill the holes with thickened epoxy.



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Jun 21, 2004
1,855
Beneteau 343 Slidell, LA
Yes, I know what your'e talking about. Was installing my mainsail furler, that I rebuilt, and finished around 10 AM; was already 90degrees. Decided to call it quits and install the main on another morning. My Hunter 33.5 also had a gate valve on the holding tank discharge thru hull fitting. I replaced it after 10 years. I like the manner in which you grinded the thru hull fitting to remove it. That is my preferred method also; quick and no busted knuckles trying to wrench the valves from the thru hull. If I decide to reuse the valve or tailpiece, I can disassemble much easier after the entire assembly is removed from the boat.
 
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Rabe

.
May 15, 2019
63
Hunter 33 - Cherubini Port Clinton, OH
See the reducers in this photo? It looks like 2 to me.

The manual says this hose is supposed to be 1 1/2" but I think it's something smaller.
 

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Rabe

.
May 15, 2019
63
Hunter 33 - Cherubini Port Clinton, OH
I like the manner in which you grinded the thru hull fitting to remove it. That is my preferred method also; quick and no busted knuckles trying to wrench the valves from the thru hull.
Yeah it was pretty easy. It took me less than an hour and less than 3 batteries for my craftsman grinder.
 
May 31, 2007
747
Hunter 37 cutter Blind River
To cut the top skin of glass I prefer to use an angle grinder with a diamond blade. To square the corners an oscillating tool like a Fein works very well. For core you can use balsa or ply squares. My 37C has ply, cannot remember the coring on my 33. However, Hunter used marine ply, not regular exterior grade. Wet ply lasts far longer than wet balsa. Personally, I would be using polyester resin rather than epoxy and much heavier glass cloth. 1708 stitchmat laminates to about 1/16", making the buildup of top skin go much faster.
 
Jun 5, 2010
1,060
Hunter 25 Burlington NJ
Today I didn't get much work done, I was selling my old Venture 17 and that took forever!
...
I started "exploring" the rotten core by the port chain plates. The 1/8" holes I drilled came back with some wet, what I think is, balsa.
...
I am worried that the core is rotten all the way to the edge, under the toe rail.
...
This will be the first time I've ever fiber-glassed anything. ... I order west systems 105, 206 and 209 the pumps 6 ounce cloth.
/QUOTE]


I'm sorry you had trouble selling your V17. I'd love to have one myself!

Your problem core sounds like an ideal job for the drill-and-fill method. Sound sections with a hammer or kneel on it, hard, and see where the likely gaps are. The cut-out-and-rebuild method is so troublesome to do, and so potentially vulnerable when done wrong (which is often, even by those who think they know what they're doing), that I default to recommending AGAINST it.

You've already got epoxy; so don't worry about the chemical bond. Epoxy bonds mechanically (physically). It saturates anything porous, fills gaps, and bonds to and remains bonded to itself. So even rotten-to-dust material will receive it. You might just have to use more than you'd like.

Drill 5/16" holes, not less than about 3-$" apart, into the affected area of deck. Go till the drill bitt jumps - that's it going into the core - and then STOP before you go through the (very thin skin) underneath. Mix up a batch of 105/205 - that's 'fast' hardener - and add in a dose of microfibers to the consistency of like store-brand runny applesauce. Use more if you've got actual voids (all core gone) in the deck - in such a case you might add cotton fibers, microballoons, or even sawdust and chips to just bulk it up. Right before you start, add in a liberal dose of acetone and MIX WELL. The a-tones will carry the epoxy in farther and evaporate (promptly), leaving your microfibers and epoxy in whatever's still in there (balsa, foam, wood, whatever).

Use the syringe to suck up the mix and pump it into the holes in the deck. Cut off the tip as big as will let it go into the 5/16" holes. Go gently at first till you know what it will take. You may be surprised that some holes don't take any at all - that's good core in there; but let it be, and move on - all you've wasted is some time.

Major caveats:
- BEFORE starting, inspect under the deck and using duct tape or Frogtape securely tape over all potential leaks. Cracked fiberglass on '70s boats (without liners) will cause epoxy to dribble into the boat - and, even worse than the mess, you will not have any epoxy left where you wanted it to stay. It will run till it fully cures (12-24 hours).
- Start with a small area, downhill on the deck, maybe 2 sq ft. Excessive epoxy poured in will cure with its own heat - too much heat and it goes brittle - much more than that and you could have real problems (chemical fire). For the next batch, move uphill, so the epoxy will bond to the lower batch.
- Downhill from your holes, make a dam of Frogtape or duct tape on the deck to keep excessive epoxy from running down into windows, handrails, hardware, nonskid, etc. You will have plenty of excess - if you've done it right. I use Handi-Wipes to blot it - works good for tools and hands too.
- Caulk the chainplates BEFORE filliing with epoxy. If you've got bad core anywhere, it will definitely be bad around the chainplates; and this is the WORST place where you might have to staunch a leak into the interior from your filling the deck with epoxy.

In my experience, you DO NOT have to worry about even a mild degree of trapped moisture in the core. The epoxy WILL cure in the wet and actually displaces the water - pushes it up to ooze out your holes in the deck. Look for anything that looks like slimy gray baby vomit coming up - that's the water from the core. Keep squeezing the syringe till it's only epoxy coming up. Once the epoxy cures, it won't be a factor.

That said - the epoxy will bond to anything porous; so that includes dusty foam, rotten balsa, soft plywood, etc. Really the only drawback to the drill-and-fill method (aside from the potential for mess) is that it does add weight. Epoxy is heavier than core. That's part of why your deck isn't already just solid epoxy! But I'd be VERY surprised if the drill-and-fill method added 10 lbs to the whole weight of the boat, even if it's up in the cabintop.

Sand and fair when it's all done and paint over with epoxy primer and compatible topcoat paint - with or without nonskid compound added in. Gelcoat will not stick (for long) to either paint or epoxy (inadequate chemical bond). If you insist on using it, you'll have to do it from the start with a polyester-based compound.

I did about 2/3 of my deck forward of the hatch using drill-and-fill. I did NOT cut out any of the top surface - only drilled the holes. It is rock-solid now. Most importantly the structural integrity of the upper strata (the strength side) is uncompromised. Any cutting-out of sections requires A LOT of remedial work to put even a little of this strength back; and most don't consider that. Now consider what happens when area of deck under a deck-stepped mast have been cut out and patched up [shudder].

Your two other things -

Rely on only 5200 for sealing chainplates through the deck. This does three things - adds strength which no other similar compound has; stops leaks; provides ease of assembly and in-the-field maintenance. Any of the weaker polyurethane sealants will do too - 4000UV, 4200 - they're just not as strong in tensile and in shear. It's not that vital here.

Your toerail is bolted through solid polyester fiberglass. The hull is made in the mold having a horizontal flange of about 3-5" wide (they use flat boards clamped to the outside of the mold to lay this up, then remove them to get the hull out) and the deck has a margin of solid 'glass about 4-6" wide at its edge. The deck is set onto a fat bead of 5200 and the aluminum toerail is bent around (using a pre-made model-specific pattern) and through-bolted with 1/4"-20 carriage bolts on like 5-1/2" centers. These are drawn down from below with fender washers under the flange and locknuts. This is absolutely the strongest seam on the boat and invariably one of the very last seams to fail (leak, or otherwise part with age or damage). If it had been done with silicone, it'd have had leaks decades ago - and it wouldn't be strong.
 
Last edited:
Jun 5, 2010
1,060
Hunter 25 Burlington NJ
They are gate valves. The sanitation discharge is a 1 1/2" gate valve with some sort of plastic reduction fitting. At least I think so..

Looking at the GROCO site, I can't find a 1 1/2" thread to 3/4"
/QUOTE]

As all those who know me on here know, I would recommend nothing else but Forespar Marelon for replacing your seacocks. For reasons far too numerous to list here and far too convincing to be overstated, these have become industry-standard on all quality sailboats (for some reason motorboaters won't be swayed). These are very easily installed with 5200 (use nothing else) and the best news is that, since I did mine, Forespar now offers the round-base 'OEM model' to the general public. (I got my OEM ones by virtue of being in the trade. The triangle-base 'field retrofit' ones are a little more hassle to install.)

I would not waste my time or effort installing any bronze seacocks in this day and age, especially when so much metal comes from southeast Asia and so much of it has been proven to be simply terrible in quality on so many other products. Half of the 'affordable' ones are half brass and will last half as long as you'll have your boat. Marelon is good for 40-50 years (judging by the boats I know of that vintage with RC Marine seacocks on them). Accept no substitutes.

If you order them direct from Forespar, tell Randy I sent you :)
 
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Rabe

.
May 15, 2019
63
Hunter 33 - Cherubini Port Clinton, OH
These are very easily installed with 5200 (use nothing else)
I understand some people want to use 5200 on things that will never be removed, but yet here we are, talking about removing things that would never be removed. I am quite against 5200 in that regard. I believe things should be easily maintained. Including removing a seacock that needs removed.

Thanks for the tip! I'll check Forspar out.
 
Jun 5, 2010
1,060
Hunter 25 Burlington NJ
I understand some people want to use 5200 on things that will never be removed, but yet here we are, talking about removing things that would never be removed. I am quite against 5200 in that regard. I believe things should be easily maintained. Including removing a seacock that needs removed.

Thanks for the tip! I'll check Forspar out.
Sorry; when I say '5200' I should be clear that I mean any of its less-strong polyurethane derivatives, including 4000/4200 and the -UV variants. They are all essentially the same compound. 4000/4200 removes very well with some heat and a razor knife. 5200 will break down surprisingly quickly with (perhaps aggressive) application of denatured alcohol ('stove fiel') or gasoline.

Nothing is permanent on a boat. With luck we can get 40 years out of some things. That should be enough for most of us.

That said, I would use 5200 on all chainplates as it does those three things I mentioned, three things which none of the alternatives like silicone, LifeSeal, LifeCalk, or (worst of all) butyl tape will do. It's not overkill. Accept no substitutes for propriety or for perfection.
 
Feb 26, 2004
21,906
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Rely on only 5200 for sealing chainplates through the deck. This does three things - adds strength which no other similar compound has; stops leaks; provides ease of assembly and in-the-field maintenance. Any of the weaker polyurethane sealants will do too - 4000UV, 4200 - they're just not as strong in tensile and in shear. It's not that vital here.
@Rabe, this is perhaps the worst advice I've read on this forum in a long time. For perhaps the last decade, al most all of us have been recommending for chainplates Maine Sail's Bed-it-with-Butyl, a special marine butyl formula different from butyl tape you get from a hardware store. I've owned boats since 1983 and 5200 is the very last thing I would ever think of for that application, or for anything else on any of my boats for that matter. I am surprised at DofB for this because in the other post there was this excellent advice:

I would recommend nothing else but Forespar Marelon for replacing your seacocks.
That's really true and metal seacocks make no sense to me.
 
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Rabe

.
May 15, 2019
63
Hunter 33 - Cherubini Port Clinton, OH
Sorry; when I say '5200' I should be clear that I mean any of its less-strong polyurethane derivatives, including 4000/4200 and the -UV variants. They are all essentially the same compound. 4000/4200 removes very well with some heat and a razor knife. 5200 will break down surprisingly quickly with (perhaps aggressive) application of denatured alcohol ('stove fiel') or gasoline.

Nothing is permanent on a boat. With luck we can get 40 years out of some things. That should be enough for most of us.
Then you and I are on the same page :)
 
Jan 4, 2006
3,822
Hunter 310 West Vancouver, B.C.
. I couldn't get the hose off, though. Any tips on getting the original waste discharge hose off? I couldn't even "rotate" the hose around the nipple.
Try heating it with a hair dryer (or a heat gun if you are careful). The heat causes the wire wound hose to "relax" ever so slightly and sometimes just enough to release it. When you re-install the old hose or preferably new sanitation hose over barb fittings, apply NON petroleum grease (Superlube) and heat (if required). The non petroleum grease will not affect the hose material. Someone once mentioned avoiding lubricant as it will cause the hose to fall off. Put all your strength into trying to pull apart a hose clamped, barbed fitting and good luck.
 
Feb 26, 2004
21,906
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
I couldn't get the hose off, though. Any tips on getting the original waste discharge hose off? I couldn't even "rotate" the hose around the nipple.
If the hose is going to be removed and replaced, and you can't get it off by rotating or pulling on it, have you considered slitting the hose the length of the barb it is sitting on? So you have a broken hose end of a hose that's gonna go in the trash, right?
 

Rabe

.
May 15, 2019
63
Hunter 33 - Cherubini Port Clinton, OH
If the hose is going to be removed and replaced, and you can't get it off by rotating or pulling on it, have you considered slitting the hose the length of the barb it is sitting on? So you have a broken hose end of a hose that's gonna go in the trash, right?
I haven't decided to replace the old hose. There's no smell, no cracking and the only reason now to replace it is because I'm "in the neighborhood".

I mean, I may replace it. But right now they find after replacing the valves and thru hulls, repairing the core in spots and replacing my strut bolts.