h336 Sail Trim at 37kts ???

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curtdo

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Nov 9, 2012
11
Hunter 336 Atlanta
I had a heck of a race recently where the wind unexpectedly was in the range of 30-37kts. Most I ever sailed before with the 336 was 28kts.

I sailed with a double reefed main and no foresail. Traveller all the way down.

Still I felt totally overpowered and honestly scared (forgot to say I went out with a known engine that would not start that day).

In the above condition the main constantly flailed, but we still kept rounding up.

One thought I had was whether I should have hardened down on the vang to flatten the sail and stop the flailling.

I am not anxious to try this again, but if I did, any ideas what to do with the sails?

Also, anyone been in a 336 or similar in greater winds? What did you do?
 
Jan 24, 2008
293
Alerion Express 28 Oneida Lake, NY
...forgot to say I went out with a known engine that would not start that day


W O W!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
May 31, 2007
750
Hunter 37 cutter Blind River
I prefer to use the headsail and a little bit of main in hard conditions, but I am not particularly familiar with the 336. Sounds as though you have a "roachy" main rather than an inmast furler. I think I would be rigging for a third, very deep reef. That should help balance the helm.
 

Rick

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Oct 5, 2004
1,068
Hunter 420 Passage San Diego
Curt
Have to say I have never tried to sail in those conditions. 18 knots on a beam reach is about the max the helm can handle and then its down to the reef. How is your reefing system set up? If it is similar to mine, when you get to the second reef, because of the roach of the sail and where the reefing kringle is, its difficult to shape the sail because you cant tighten the leach and pull the reef to the boom. I altered my system just a bit, meaning when I get to the second reef, I can pull the leach (kringle) of the sail straight down without pulling aft to move the draft aft and flatten the sail a bit. As you mentioned, yep, vang her down hard to flatten the roach although you said you were near the edge of weatherhelm. Fixing that is either dumping air out the top of the sail by easing the mainsheet or easing the reef. Its gonna talk in 37 knots. A third reef..? Sure, all it takes is probably 2 boat bucks to rig that.

She is not a bluewater boat and you were in quite a gale! The one time wifey and I found ourselves in 40 knots, we rounded up, blew the mainsheet, furled the headsail, and could barely hear ourselves yelling at each other from two feet for the flogging of the main. It was survival time! Not make the weather mark!

Dont really know if there is a solution in those conditions.

So what is wrong with your motor? Would like to hear some details about that. Your a brave crew to launch with no motor in these modern days.

Cheers..
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,385
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
As Rick mention, When the breeze is up, the key is to flatten the sail, no matter how much is up. Think F-104 starfighter wing, designed for supersonic, vs a WW1 Spad. Camber is not your friend here. This can be hard after you reef if your lines are not set right to allow flattening. In particular pay attention to your aft reefing line, and make sure you can get the clew all the way to the boom. If you are not careful you can end up with more lift in the reefed sail than you had when you started.

Here is pic of us in a squall, winds a less you you had, maybe 30kts here. Mainsail as flat as she can go, no reefs. It generates very little lift in this configuration, so perfect control. Reefed boat in front of us? Not so much.

 

curtdo

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Nov 9, 2012
11
Hunter 336 Atlanta
Thanks guys,

I will think more about how to best flatten the mainsail. Other than that, for the conditions maybe it was just too much sail and only solution would have been 3d reef

Rick, my motor problem was a burned up starter from startiing in cold weather at 8am the previous weeks race ( wish 3gm had glow plugs). Did not have time to replace for that day's race.

What we will do to not miss a race in the series........ In fact this was my first winter series, it cost me a ripped main (and added cunningham kringle while in repair), two lost cowl vents, parted reefing line and jib sheet, a blown starter, and worst of all a crew member tearing ACL and miniscus during the battle with that big wind race.
 
May 28, 2009
764
Hunter 376 Pensacola, FL
A 336 just isn't the boat to be on in those conditions. I think the only real solution would be a deep third reef. Anytime the winds have topped 20 knots sustained with gusts to 25+, we're usually rolling everything up, starting the engine and heading for home, because at the second reef there's still too much sail up.
 

Rick D

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Jun 14, 2008
7,005
Hunter Legend 40.5 Shoreline Marina Long Beach CA
Second Robert...

I think it's a matter of sail control. Maybe a sliver of jib alone. The main would definitely need a third reef. The reason there are only two reefs is obvious; rarely would most people be in those conditions and if they are, it's douse sails and power up. But, some sail up would be a lot more comfortable. What I recommended to people cruising on my era boat is a first reef about half between the current first and second and a second where a third would be. From experience, I believe a deeper reef is necessary 30+ knots and I hardly ever use the first, normally going right to the second by the time I reef. The only one I know who brought sails and had that done reported it worked well.

If a boat is rigged to perform in light to moderate conditions, she will be over-canvased when things pipe up. Ergo, cutter (scutter) rigs, reefing gennys, third reefs, etc.
 
Jan 22, 2008
758
Hunter 340 Baytown TX
Curtdo, we had our Hunter 340, almost the same boat as your 336, out Saturday and saw apparent wind over 30 knots most of the time upwind. We had to run just the main with two reefs. I recently had the main luff recut to flatten it more and I think it made a big difference. We kept it under control but made lousy headway. Tried to unroll a little jib, but never could make it work very well upwind with the short jib car track length. When we made the turn to head back on a broad reach, we rolled out the whole jib and had a great ride back to the marina! Never had her over 8 knots before then, hit 8.2 SOG several times. When I do get a new main, someday, it will have a third reef or deeper first and second reefs. I have it rigged to use the outhaul on the first reef to help pull it flat, but it won't reach the second reef grommet.

http://youtu.be/vNmq1yd63ZY
 

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Jun 7, 2007
515
Hunter 320 Williamsburg
Don't overlook the other problem

Curtdo- To avoid burning out the next starter, try warming up the engine with a hairdryer plugged onto the air intake horn using a PVC elbow to connect the two. Run that for ten minutes to warm up the oil and your cold Yanmar will fire up nicely.
 

curtdo

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Nov 9, 2012
11
Hunter 336 Atlanta
Nice video Bill19233.

What exactly did you do when you had the main luff cut? Do you mean shortened overall luff length? I may want to try if it worked as you say.
 

curtdo

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Nov 9, 2012
11
Hunter 336 Atlanta
Deadline,

Great idea for warming the engine. Simple, but I never thought of that.
 

Rick

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Oct 5, 2004
1,068
Hunter 420 Passage San Diego
Couldnt agree with Robert and Rick D anymore than that. Good advice but it seems you are a competitive sailor and racer. Rick D, the only problem we have found in using a "reefed" jib is upsetting the center of effort on the boat since our main is the engine in the case of the modern day Hunter rig. She really dives into the waves on a beat with the jib out. Downwind is another whole type of sail trim.

And when you get to needing a third reef on a 34 type Hunter, you are basically trying to stabilize the boat and ride out the squall or gale while heading BACK to the dock!

Also on a side note, there are less expensive options than an OEM starter for your little 3GM30F. Shop around.

Cheers
 
Jan 22, 2008
758
Hunter 340 Baytown TX
Nice video Bill19233.

What exactly did you do when you had the main luff cut? Do you mean shortened overall luff length? I may want to try if it worked as you say.
The sail loft did not shorten the length of the luff, they shortened the width of the sail by cutting off the luff, 4 or 5 inches wide near the lower spreader patch and tapering to nothing near the head and tack. They had to sew the luff rope back in, reattach sail slides, install new forward reef points, even shorten the lower full batten. $400 worth of hand work. They strongly recommended a new sail, but I don't want to put that much money into my boat right now (In case I find a 38 at the right price). I've only been out in a calm or double reef conditions since I put the sail back on last month, so I can't really say yet if it was worth it and will hold up. In this calm photo it sure looks flat. Most 336's I've seen have full batten mains, and would not be as blown out as mine was.
 

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May 28, 2009
764
Hunter 376 Pensacola, FL
I have it rigged to use the outhaul on the first reef to help pull it flat, but it won't reach the second reef grommet.
Now that's a nice idea. I recently replaced our outhaul, and added a lot more length because I have this plan to eventually run it back to the cockpit so that I can manage it from there instead of from the mast. I'll bet I could pull enough through the boom to reach the 2nd reef clew. Have to give that a try.
 
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