Going to drop my keel and inspect

[Mackaroni]

So, I am making arrangements now to drop my 302 keel and have it inspected. The previous owner had put a substantial amount of what appears to be 4200 around the keel to stub joint. When I hauled for the winter, I noticed a bunch of barnacles had dug well into the sealant. So, I am spending a great deal of time to remove this mess.

However, upon removing it, I noticed that the keel seems to be "off center" for lack of a better way to describe it. There is almost a 1/4' difference from left to right in some places. When viewed from the back, it can definitely be seen that it is not aligned. The front seam seems to be correct. There has not been any evidence of damage to the keel. I ran the boat onto a sand bar once, but it was very gentle on and a gentle pull off of it.

Has anyone seen anything like this before? (I know it's a little hard to see because I haven't finished cleaning all the 4200 off, and the light is bad on the second photo).

Unless someone else has any bright ideas, I can only assume one of two things:

1. The factory did a poor job of drilling the holes, misaligned it, and attached it that way.

2. Somehow, a bolt hole has wallowed wider and the rig has shifted starboard. I would think that this is unlikely, but I guess anything is possible.

Guess I won't be sailing until May some time.

 

[jibes138]

The clamping force on your keel is likely on the order of 50,000 pounds if the bolts are torqued correctly. It is unlikely with that amount of joint clamping force and the friction that is created between the surfaces that the keel would shift even if the holes were a little oversized. Maybe the bolts got a little loose over the years? You are wise to drop and inspect it and realign it. Check the thickness of the keel stub laminate and beef it up if required by adding laminate in the bilge.

 

[GregL564]

Really appreciate that you’re sharing your investigation. There has been lots of discussion here and elsewhere about keel issues, and for someone like me who would love to get into a 302 or 322 someday, extremely helpful. Looking forward to seeing more about what you find about the keel and what may be needed, if anything, to fix.

 

[colinhulse]

guess

I venture a guess that the keel was replaced. unfortunately, the hole locations were different and the 'slaved on' 4200 was there to mask the fact.

 

[Mackaroni]

Colinhulse.....that's an angle I hadn't thought about. I am not sure how I would handle that.

 

[BaySkipper]

What year is your O'Day 302? I have the same problem, keel is shifted off the center, looks like poor job from the factory; how many keel bolts do you have? what are the nut sizes? I will post some pictures later [ have to upload them from my camera];

 

[jibes138]

Does the 302 have a "wing" keel?

 

[Mackaroni]

Yes....the 302 has a wing keel. It has three 1.5 inch bolts and one 1/2 bolt that hold the keel to the stub.

I will be dropping the keel hopefully in the next two weeks to ascertain why it is off center. If it is a shoddy install job, then I can live with it. If there is corrosion on the bolts or the bolts have stretched from an impact, then I am not ok with it and will need to fix it. I have a hard time believing it came from the factory like this.

 

[GregL564]

I don’t know boat manufacturing methods well, but I suspect even in 1988 they were still largely unchanged from when the first fiberglass boats were made, using molds made by hand, rather than CNC-guided machines.

If so, tolerances as large as those you describe may not be unusual. For example, an article in the current issue of Sail (April 2015) about the renovation of an Alberg 35 notes that the rudder post is off-center by a full inch, and that this is common among these boats.

Hoping, though, whatever you uncover does not require an extensive fix. Good luck!

 

[Mackaroni]

Greg,

I hope you are right and that it was from the factory like that. Unfortunately, it is going to cost bit of money to find out. I haven't seen anyone else in all the searches I have done for the O'day boats say that they have a keel that is not aligned just right. Maybe someone knows of a situation?

I am hoping that if something is wrong when I drop it that it will be obvious. My surveyor said that it isn't uncommon for the bolts to exhibit stretch over time, particularly if it has been grounded or had an impact. This is what he told me verbatim:

"On the keel, having discovered this you are doing just the right thing. Keel bolts can waste over time, which may allow them to stretch under strain. Drop the keel, get the surfaces cleaned off, check the keel bolts. It sounds like there may have been a grounding which applied a slight torsion to the keel. Cleaned off, check how the keel mates to the stub, as well as the fit where the bolts penetrate the stub check and replace keel bolts as needed, and seal well with 4200 or similar when she is bolted back up."

I am hoping for the best, although I am not sure exactly what the best is for this situation.

 

[Mackaroni]

I thought I would throw a quick update here. I moved my boat in the yard today in preparation to have the mast taken off and the keel dropped and inspected. Probably not a minute too soon.

When I bought the boat, my surveyor noted the following:

Keel: Winged lead external keel, 2,400 lbs. Only one keel bolt is visible without dismantling.
The keel/stub joint shows rough attempts to seal the joint, which is nonetheless
weeping.


In his recommendations section, he noted the following

Drop the winged keel, examine the keel bolts, the top surface of the ballast casting and the bilges where the keel is through bolted. Reinforce/repair the bolting area in the bilges as needed,
or possibly install large backing plates under the nuts; consult with your repair technician. (Maintenance)


For many reasons, it didn't get done right away and was on my list of potential things to do, but neither the surveyor or a mechanic who visually inspected it as well before I bought that boat seemed too worried. Here is a picture of the weeping that it showed:

When I pulled it out of the water this winter, I didn't notice any signs of weeping anywhere on the keel. There were however, a ton of barnacles that had embedded themselves firmly in the sealant. I have a photo that shows a few, but the other side was quite a bit more populated.

As I started stripping the paint off the keel, I noticed that there was a ton of sealant applied. Not sure what kind it was, but pretty hard to get off. Some of those pictures are earlier in this thread.

Today when I had the boat on the lift, it was quite obvious that there is a serious problem with the keel that the sealant was masking. It was the first time I had seen the joint without sealant and the weight of the boat off the keel. I can see light through the keel to stub joint and it is possible to move the keel.

http://vid1295.photobucket.com/albums/b623/ice5c4tl/Oday%20302%20Refit/IMG_8464_zpsiqqblsu7.mp4

I will continue to update things as learn them. My tentative date to drop the mast is 1 May and hopefully the keel on the same day.

I have had better days.

 

[Sunbird22358]

It looks to me like over time the bolts loosened up (maybe 1/4" +/-) and a previous owner or lazy boatyard staff simply tried to "take the easy way out" and simply plastered the joint with sealant instead of tightening the bolts. Sadly.... this could have caused further damage that would have been avoided by simply tightening the bolts. The stories I've heard about difficulty in accessing the keel bolts on hte 302 and 322 may be why sealant was used instead of properly torguing the bolts.

 

[jibes138]

Not sure that gap is unexpected. What I found on my O'Day is a very thick layer of sealant in the joint. I think they used it like a gasket, in other words put lots of sealant in the joint, then not clamp the joint completely until it cures then once it cures torque the keel bolts leaving a gasket like layer in the joint. If you scrape all the sealant out of the joint it will certainly look like a gap just the way your keel looks. That said having a soft compliant layer in there likely allows the keel to work under load and over the 25 years or so since the sealant was applied it might break down a bit causing loss of preload from the torque of the bolts. It is really critical to keep the bolts at their full design torque to keep enough compressive load on this "gasket" so it doesn't leak and doesn't allow otion. Years ago Maine Sail or I think a guy named Charlie something did a photo description of bedding a keel that was very informative might still be there is you do a search on it.

 

[Mackaroni]

I will look for that article that MaineSail wrote.....I haven't come across it. It sounds like I could really benefit from reading it.

Did you notice that the entire keel wobbled when I shook it?

 

[jibes138]

What is your keel made out of? Is it iron or lead? There is an outfit in Canada called Mars Metals that does keel repairs replacing keel bolts by melting out the old ones and installing new ones and then melting new metal back in place. Not sure with an iron keel if they can do that though. Messing around with lead is dangerous due to the toxicity of the metal if it is ingested.
If your bolts are OK then you likely need some glass work in the bilge sump, if nothing else I'd want to beef up the thickness from previous reports of thin cross sections. O'Day changed hands a couple times in the 1980's so quality may have suffered as they probably went through "synergy savings" in the acquisition process by forcing experienced highly skilled workers to retire or had lay offs. I was always surprised that the keels didn't have dowels to position them and then the bolts would just be to apply the clamping force to the joint.

 

[Pat]

These are lead keels made by Mars in Canada...I have the original ads for the 302 and 322 and the Mars keels were a big selling point at the time...Pat

 

[Steve L22188]

What did you find?

As a fellow 302 owner, wondered what you found when you finally dropped the keel?

Thanks.

 

[LittleCreek]

I will look for that article that MaineSail wrote.....I haven't come across it. It sounds like I could really benefit from reading it.

Did you notice that the entire keel wobbled when I shook it?

I am betting on corrosion being the initial factor, and which may have caused a little misalignment after & when the mated surfaces started opening up. I'm sure that you will replace all the bolts and hardware. At least it should be a pretty straight forward fix.

I just can't see a builder selling a boat with with a keel being misaligned that much.

Do the keel wings have any hidden damage? I am wondering if the keel struck something in the past.

Good luck Mackaroni......hope the repairs go smoothly & you can get on the water quickily.

 

[Evan656]

Hey Mack! How are you making out? I think you are having the full experience of an older bolt on keel inspection/repair (short of a catastrophic failure - and you have to be thankful for that). You are doing everything right and now you won't have to wonder anymore.
Side-lined by an illness these past three weeks, I have not made any progress on my keel inspection. My 302 has only been in fresh water so less competition with salt and barnacles. And it gets hauled out and sits on the hard for 1/2 a year each year. Overall, the joint compound between stub and keel looks good. I did have some weeping from the joint but not since I resealed last Spring. But the joint is still loose and bolts need to be torqued to specifications. My surveyor did observe the weeping and that the alignment of the keel looked slightly off, but he didn't say much more than to check the bolts and torque. And with the boat on the hard and keel joint compressed, i found I could basically loosen one of the 1.5 inch nuts by hand. So my fingers are crossed that torqueing all the bolts will do it for me.
I feel for your disappointment but I hope you feel this will be resolved soon and that it is also for the best.

 

[Evan656]

Hi Mack,
Just finished torquing my 302 keel bolts. All were snug but lose enough to be twisted off by hand. Didn't remove the pedestal entirely to get to the third bolt. Just undid it and pushed the bottom of the pedestal aside far enough for me to get the nut driver down the hole and on the nut. This saved me from pulling the wires out of the pedestal and into the boat and out of the way.
Even with the leaves off the table, there is very little (if any) working room to torque the 1" bolts with what ends up being a fairly big torque wrench to make the specified 280 Ft Lbs. I ended up using a pneumatic gun with a max 300 Psi torque rating. This is imprecise but the bolts are tight and the joint did compress and I am satisfied that the joint and nuts are tight. I'll continue to check the bolts occasionally as recommended by O'Day. There are pneumatic torque wrenches out there but they rare and probably expensive for this purpose. What I might do next time is find someone who has one (a mechanic or machine shop) and hire them to torque the bolts.
Unrelated, attached is a picture of the emergency tiller cap you were asking about.
Looking forward to your next update.