Floatation of wet foam

Jun 25, 2004
1,108
Corsair F24 Mk1 003 San Francisco Bay, CA
Judy's research leaves me with a new question. When the foam blocks are waterlogged, how much weight do they gain? Is the amount of the weight gain anywhere near the weight of water for the same displacement? Or is it only a small portion? If the foam only gains something like 5% of water weight, then you may not be so bad off with what you have, despite 5% of water weight probably being many times the weight of the dry foam.
@JimInPB: I think you're right: "you may not be so bad off with what you have" even when foam gains somew weight from water. Even soggy coffee-cup foam blocks take a long time to get so waterlogged that it no longer provides helpful buoyancy. But to stay safe, you have to know how to calculate how much buoyancy the foam is likely to lose over a longer period of time. You can reduce risk by installing enough volume of foam to provide a safety margin and by checking periodically to ensure it's fairly dry.

The procedure is, in theory, straight forward: Experiment with the foam to discover how much water weight it will absorb per cubic foot in any given time. For example, if a cubic foot of foam absorbed 3 pounds of water in a month, it lost 3 pounds of buoyancy. But it's hard to find real world, experimental data.
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I found ONE academic research paper on water absorption rates for expanded polystyrene aka EPS (coffee cup style beaded polystyene). It's got some real data about how much water EPS soaks up over time.

You can read it at the following link: http://leidykla.vgtu.lt/conferences/MBM_2007/1pdf/Gnip_Kersulis.pdf

[Disclaimer: It's been almost 30 years since I read and wrote statistically articles similar to this. I'm rusty. I had to read it several times just to get the gist of it.]

The authors collected water absorption rates for 162 samples of EPS of varying densities, from various European manufacturers/ They took measurements after 7 days, 14 days, etc, up to 250 days, They recorded their observations in terms of change in mass of the sample and converted that to % volume that was saturated.

At the end of 28 days of submersion, the average quality of foam of one cubic foot of EPS took on 1.92 pounds of water and lost 1.92 pounds of buoyancy.

At the end of 28 days, the worst performing foam sample group took on 3.12 pounds of water per cubic foot and lost 3.12 pounds of buoyancy.

Then the authors tested the rate of water ingress for longer periods. They observed that the foam continued to soak up additional water over time, but at an ever decreasing rate.

At the end of 250 days, the loss of buoyancy and weight gain was only 1.6 times greater than the 28 day figure. The worst performing cubic foot of foam gained about 5 pounds of water and lost 5 pounds of buoyancy.

Then they derived some equations from all the data to predict how much water the foam would soak up over even longer periods of them.

Their predictions:
At the end of 2 years, the equations in the article predict that each cubic foot worst performing foam will have absorbed 7.08 pounds of water and lost the same amount of buoyancy.

At the end of 5 years, the equations in the article predict that each cubic foot worst performing foam will have absorbed 15.33 pounds of water and lost the same amount of buoyancy.

At the end of 25 years, the equations in the article predict that each cubic foot of worst performing foam will have absorbed 21.6 pounds of water and lost the same amount of buoyancy.
 
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Oct 26, 2008
6,079
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
I respectfully disagree. Expanded polystyene (like coffee cups made of beads of closed cell foam are stuck together in a mold to form a shape) and extruded polystyrene (blue board or pink board) are both closed cell foam. Both foams trap air in closed cells. Both are rigid, non-flexible foam.

Expanded polystrene has interstitial spaces between the round beads. Water may seep into the block of foam via the interstitial spaces and replace the air that was previously there. But water doesn't penetrate the round beads themselves unless you crush them and break the cell walls.

I tried to find "Open cell polystyene" and "open cell styrofoam" for sale on the internet. I couldn't find any. I'm pretty darn sure that "open cell polystene" isn't commercially available.
Perfect explanation. If you consider that extruded polystyrene (XPS) is denser and the cells contain gases with air, and the gases eventually diffuse out from the cells, you are better off with expanded polystyrene (EPS) - what we typically call styrofoam.
http://www.truefoam.com/about-eps/expanded-vs-extruded-polystyrene
This article explains that with diffusion, XPS typically loses insulation value, while EPS remains constant. While it is left unsaid what the impact of diffusion is on flotation, I would assume it is similarly not good.

XPS is heavier and there is no gain in flotation. Perhaps thru diffusion, the loss of flotation over time may be similar to the loss of flotation in EPS due to the water gain that DrJudyB describes above. I'd stick with EPS.
 
Jun 9, 2004
615
Catalina 385 Marquette. Mi
“Flotation” in boats reminds me of parachutes on Cirrus aircraft.
 
Oct 19, 2017
7,746
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
I don't think the real issue here is the definition of closed cell foam vs open cell foam nor is it about the obstruction rate over the flotation value in a swamped boat for the purposes of rescue (ultimately that is the need), but I feel like the question is, "if I put one kind of foam or another, in my boat, both will keep the boat afloat in an emergency unless one, having sat unattended in bilge water or such, over time, may not have the flotation value needed and provided when it was fresh. What is the best solution to that problem?" Judy's cited article is very encouraging but it also shows that you can buy a 30 year old boat and possibly have only 2/3 the flotation value designed into the boat. So, if renewing that flotation, which option allows for the least maintenance over time until the day it might be needed?
My answer is, do what you can to keep your foam dry. I was incline to seal it up and rely on both the foam and the enclosed air chamber to float my boat, but even sealed chambers can leak. The danger is in believing they are fine when you can't know. So install your foam, whatever type you choose, and check it periodically. Once a seasons sounds good.

- Will (Dragonfly)
 
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Sumner

.
Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
... and check it periodically. Once a seasons sounds good.

- Will (Dragonfly)
Pretty hard to do on a Mac as in our S it is back in the coaming, above or below the V-berth and ahead of it in areas where you either can't get to it or you would have to just keep pulling it out to get to all of it. I see no reason any of it should be getting wet in the first place. If that is happening then I'd say try and fix the leaking. There is no real bilge area on a Mac. Water coming in on our S from chain plates, window or other places can find its way to a low area under the cabin settees but there is no foam there. Not sure about the OP'x 25.

I've seen MacGregor's pictures/videos of one of the models intentionally holed with people standing on the deck, but wonder what happens once we start adding lots of stuff to the boat like one does on a trip or over time. Day sailing with a stock boat and not much aboard is a different matter.

I have no idea if ours will still float and I'm not going to spend much time worrying about it. I'd say good anchor gear, radios and navigation gear that works and you know how to use along with life jackets, flares and a good understanding of what you and your boat can do are way more important than the foam, but just my opinion,

Sumner
=============================================================================
1300 miles to The Bahamas and Back in the Mac...
Endeavour 37 Mods...

MacGregor 26-S Mods...http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/endeavour-main/endeavour-index.html
Mac Trips to Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, Canada, Florida, Bahamas
 
Aug 22, 2011
1,113
MacGregor Venture V224 Cheeseland
snip:

I've seen MacGregor's pictures/videos of one of the models intentionally holed with people standing on the deck, but wonder what happens once we start adding lots of stuff to the boat like one does on a trip or over time. Day sailing with a stock boat and not much aboard is a different matter.
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I have seen the same Mac promo material, read as many posts on forums as I could find, thought long and hard about possible situations where it might matter. I have finally decided that on the vintage of my old boat the flotation is not a SAFETY feature but a MARKETING feature and likely to be of no use in real world conditions where the chips may be down. Especially in a fully loaded boat which mine is. Therefore I'm am going for the room and removing the foam. My prevention strategy is now an increase in my knowledge of seamanship and the application thereof......
 
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Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
I have seen the same Mac promo material, read as many posts on forums as I could find, thought long and hard about possible situations where it might matter. I have finally decided that on the vintage of my old boat the flotation is not a SAFETY feature but a MARKETING feature and likely to be of no use in real world conditions where the chips may be down. Especially in a fully loaded boat which mine is. Therefore I'm am going for the room and removing the foam. My prevention strategy is now an increase in my knowledge of seamanship and the application thereof......
BINGO.

As a prudent sailor, your energy and knowledge should go into keeping your boat a boat. When it stops being a boat (because of sinking/fire/etc), you need plan B, than that involves GETTING OFF THE BOAT. 99% of the time this means a liferaft. Spending energy/money on, or anticipating relying on the boat being your so-called liferaft is a fool's errand. In the types of conditions and circumstances that caused the problem in the first place, you need a real solution.

Anyone that tells your otherwise has not thought it all the way through, or is kidding themselves. And you.

So if your boat has foam in it great - leave it, but never rely on that to save you.
 

walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,511
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
I have finally decided that on the vintage of my old boat the flotation is not a SAFETY feature but a MARKETING feature and likely to be of no use in real world conditions where the chips may be down.
Key item is that "you decided" and its purely opinion. My old Mac is now 28 years old and really nothing wrong with it after all this time. I have come to respect the engineering that went into at least the boat I have and have no reason to not think the flotation and foam were well thought out and tested.

But what actually did drive Macgregor and other manufactures to add the flotation foam in the first place? Was it some real evidence (stats) that it saved lives? Or was it fear of a lawsuit - which did happen at least once and possibly more? Some certification that required the boat to float when swamped? If it was something the customer wanted, you would think they would have made it an option but now Im also speculating. Adding the foam would have been a labor intensive process yet as far as I know, every single boat manufactured came out with flotation foam.

I dont think we will find out (unless Crazy Dave knows from being involved). Everyone probably has an opinion on this (but you know what body part everyone also has).

FYI, every bit of flotation foam in my boat is as high in the boat as possible so that in the unlikely case of it flooding, it would float upright. No foam at all is placed in a location where it would constantly be in a pool of water.
 
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Aug 22, 2011
1,113
MacGregor Venture V224 Cheeseland
snip
Key item is that "you decided" and its purely opinion. My old Mac is now 28 years old and really nothing wrong with it after all this time. I have come to respect the engineering that went into at least the boat I have and have no reason to not think the flotation and foam were well thought out and tested..........
snip

Isn't that my responsibility as a consumer? To to evaluate and decide what may be marketing bs and what is truly a safety addition? Especially on marketed items that have no official testing or certification requirements? My boat is almost 50 years old now and I have the promo material for those boats in that era. Flotation is clearly marketing orientated and not as certifiable safety equipment, otherwise I can assure you Mac would have included meeting such certifications with large marketing statements - which they do not. They would probably have been criminal to attempt it?? LOL. Anyway some pictures of an old Mac with the deck awash and a bunch of people hugging the mast in benign conditions tells more than one story if you care to look......