What is the future of the Catalina 22?

Mar 20, 2015
3,094
C&C 30 Mk1 Winnipeg
If you want to see the industry flourish, build more lakes.
That's goofy thing here. We have a very large number of lakes. That's one reason sailing flourished here in the past. Half the city disappears every weekend to head to them. Fishing boats, pontoon boats, jetskis, ski boats ? sure. sailing... nowhere what it was. The annual boat show has ZERO sailboats.

What is interesting is that because of that... we get looks a when towing either or our sailboats, and many people come up an ask questions. There does seem to be latent interest. Mostly seems to be older people though. I'm in my 50's and we are the youngest people in our sailing club.

Glad to promote your regatta on the C22NSA website if you expect they will support a Catalina 22 start.
Please send me the details, and I will post it.
I figure that next year I may try get something organized along the lines of a "C22s and other trailer sailors come on down" and promote it. Middle of the continent so location is good. It's a week long thing where you race each day, to a new camping/anchorage location.

Started 52 years ago with daysailers, and a couple support boats to haul gear, camping on shore each night.

A hold over from the heyday of sailing in this area, as many participants are from that era, along with their kids.

It is THE local event to go to, and it attracts young and old.
It's a positive sign of what is possible here for sailing activities.

Now it's mostly keelboats, but there are some daysailers. Who knows, it may eventually have a part in encouraging a C22 fleet in MN, ND etc.
http://www.lowisa.org/
 
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Oct 19, 2017
7,733
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
OK, I wasn't going to do it, but Leeward Rail's comment
I figure that next year I may try get something organized along the lines of a "C22s and other trailer sailors come on down" and promote it.
has made me contribute to real ideas for promoting sailing to others.
Here in New Hampshire, we are near the end of the AT (Appalachian Trail) which ends about 200 miles across the border in Maine. The AMC is going strong, they have lots of volunteers and they maintain hundreds (maybe thousands) of miles of trails in New Hampshire alone that connect to or diverge from the AT. Back in the 50s, they were not doing so well. Part of it wasn't the interest in hiking or even in membership so much as in the general interest to use all of the trails the AMC maintained. The AT, itself and a handful of prominent peaks were well hiked, but the majority of the trails and mountains the AMC stewarded were ignored. We are in the White Mountains and several ranges make this area up. the Presidentials are the biggest with Mount Washington as the tallest peak in New England. The highest winds ever recorded were at its top before the anemometer blew away at around 220 knots. These mountains are the feature peaks and very popular, but there is also the Franconia range, the Cabot range, the Carter range, the Bonds, the Twins, the Tripyramids, and more.

What someone came up with, to help promote the wider use of more trails, was the 4000 footers. Measuring the mountain peaks, the Whites are not the tallest mountains in the country, in fact, they are dwarfed by most all of the other major ranges. However, they have prominence and our trails tend to make a straight line to the tops so the trails are tough and most "through hikers" who end in the Whites, find that 20 - 26 mile days turn into 12 - 18 mile days when they hit them. I'm lucky to do a 8 mile day, and only because I am often hiking to get back out at 1 am. Anyhow, there are 48 mountains at least 4000 feet tall, more actually, but the AMC imposed parameters to the promotion; the peak has to have at least 200' of prominence above the col to count as a 4000 footer. They made a list of these peaks, published a sheet in which you have to log your hike, you have to start from a point that is at or equal to a base trailhead (meaning you can't drive off-road or take the cog railroad or bike to a higher starting point for your hike. After logging your hikes and "bagging" all 48 peaks (you can hit multiple peaks in one hike as long as your hike started at a mountain base), then you submit the form, which includes a write-up (description) of some, but not all of your hiking trips, you then get an official badge from the AMC that shows you have accomplished a significant task. It was a HUGE success. There is at least one 4000 footer in every range in the Whites and people started hiking them all. This has grown unofficial offshoots with the Hundred Highest in New England, the "Fifty with a View" and the "48 a Month" where the goal is to hike all 48 4000 footers in every month of the year (not all in one year, but hit each of the 48 peaks in January and each one in February, etc. When we are out hiking we see many hikers who get to the top, breath a sigh of satisfaction, spin around to see the view, then head back down to "bag" the next peak. They are called "Peak Baggers" and that is, seemingly, their sole reason for being out on the trails.

So, my idea, of which I have been cogitating on for quite some time, is to come up with a list of 50 sails. I would make it regional, say, New England, as an example, and these sails have to be a minimum length (something in the neighborhood of 30 miles one way), so over night most of the time, but good solid lengthy sails. Maybe South to North on Lake Champlain, Rockport to Matinicus, circumnavigate Mount Desert Island, Boston to Provincetown, Meredith to Wolfeboro on Lake Winnipesaukee. That type of thing. A log would then be submitted to the sponsoring organization for approval and a badge and sticker of completion would be issued. By making it regional, a sailor could collect one from each region. The list would include inland waters and all sailing trips within a region would have to be completed by the same boat. You couldn't qualify by renting a boat on Lake Champlain, for example. You have to trailer your boat to the location.

This is just a quick list for the purposes of example, off the top of my head. Launch sites, destinations, overnight parameters, specific or general would have to be considered. Maybe you sail to and have your picture taken drinking a beer at a specific bar, get the bar owner's support. Maybe you stand by the breakers on Otter Cliffs or take a picture of your boat within view of Owl's head light house or something. Get people interested in collecting the accomplishments and the badges of honor, so to speak. I would be happy to design them for SBO if they want to sponsor the promotion.

I was going to make up my own personal list for taking Dragonfly to. My original plan was 50 miles out, 50 miles back, at least. Then, it's "50 50s."

It worked amazingly well for the AMC.

-Will (Dragonfly)
 
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Mar 20, 2015
3,094
C&C 30 Mk1 Winnipeg
That type of promotion would probably do well in getting people to trailer them around, as opposed to sitting at a dock all summer.

If I remember correctly, the Bendix Caravan Club, had a similar thing going, along with their trailer rallies in different locations.
I vaguely remember my dad have a logbook. In addition to stickers from each rally on the back of the trailer.
My family went to New Hampshire in the 70's for one gathering. We travelled through, and stopped in various places in Maine, Vermont, New York, Nova Scotia, Illinois, Minnesota, New Brunswick, Quebec, etc. All because of that rally. Even got my first skateboard on that trip :)

The C22 Association is a big benefit for that type of thing.

One difficulty in trailering is the time required. So many people I know, have very little free time compared to what my parents had. My wife pushed me into getting a marina slip for the reason that it results in more sailing, when you have less free time.

One factor I was thinking about in relation to building future C22s, is
the cost of the C22 type boats vs boats like the water ballast MacGregors and Hunters.
Lighter to tow for modern vehicles, cheaper to buy, faster under power and make them seemingly more compelling to new sailors.
2 of the new sailors in our marina started with MacGregors and have moved up to bigger boats. One guy did not want to upgrade to something he needs to crane in/out each year, but his wife wanted a bigger boat.
The problem with those boats on Lake Winnipeg, is the recent problem of zebra mussels. That ballast tank will make it almost impossible to trailer them to other lakes. One guy said there was a method of filling them with a strong bleach solution, but I'm not sure how you would accomplish that.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
OK, I wasn't going to do it, but Leeward Rail's comment has made me contribute to real ideas for promoting sailing to others.
Here in New Hampshire, we are near the end of the AT (Appalachian Trail) which ends about 200 miles across the border in Maine. The AMC is going strong, they have lots of volunteers and they maintain hundreds (maybe thousands) of miles of trails in New Hampshire alone that connect to or diverge from the AT. Back in the 50s, they were not doing so well. Part of it wasn't the interest in hiking or even in membership so much as in the general interest to use all of the trails the AMC maintained. The AT, itself and a handful of prominent peaks were well hiked, but the majority of the trails and mountains the AMC stewarded were ignored. We are in the White Mountains and several ranges make this area up. the Presidentials are the biggest with Mount Washington as the tallest peak in New England. The highest winds ever recorded were at its top before the anemometer blew away at around 220 knots. These mountains are the feature peaks and very popular, but there is also the Franconia range, the Cabot range, the Carter range, the Bonds, the Twins, the Tripyramids, and more.

What someone came up with, to help promote the wider use of more trails, was the 4000 footers. Measuring the mountain peaks, the Whites are not the tallest mountains in the country, in fact, they are dwarfed by most all of the other major ranges. However, they have prominence and our trails tend to make a straight line to the tops so the trails are tough and most "through hikers" who end in the Whites, find that 20 - 26 mile days turn into 12 - 18 mile days when they hit them. I'm lucky to do a 8 mile day, and only because I am often hiking to get back out at 1 am. Anyhow, there are 48 mountains at least 4000 feet tall, more actually, but the AMC imposed parameters to the promotion; the peak has to have at least 200' of prominence above the col to count as a 4000 footer. They made a list of these peaks, published a sheet in which you have to log your hike, you have to start from a point that is at or equal to a base trailhead (meaning you can't drive off-road or take the cog railroad or bike to a higher starting point for your hike. After logging your hikes and "bagging" all 48 peaks (you can hit multiple peaks in one hike as long as your hike started at a mountain base), then you submit the form, which includes a write-up (description) of some, but not all of your hiking trips, you then get an official badge from the AMC that shows you have accomplished a significant task. It was a HUGE success. There is at least one 4000 footer in every range in the Whites and people started hiking them all. This has grown unofficial offshoots with the Hundred Highest in New England, the "Fifty with a View" and the "48 a Month" where the goal is to hike all 48 4000 footers in every month of the year (not all in one year, but hit each of the 48 peaks in January and each one in February, etc. When we are out hiking we see many hikers who get to the top, breath a sigh of satisfaction, spin around to see the view, then head back down to "bag" the next peak. They are called "Peak Baggers" and that is, seemingly, their sole reason for being out on the trails.

So, my idea, of which I have been cogitating on for quite some time, is to come up with a list of 50 sails. I would make it regional, say, New England, as an example, and these sails have to be a minimum length (something in the neighborhood of 30 miles one way), so over night most of the time, but good solid lengthy sails. Maybe South to North on Lake Champlain, Rockport to Matinicus, circumnavigate Mount Desert Island, Boston to Provincetown, Meredith to Wolfeboro on Lake Winnipesaukee. That type of thing. A log would then be submitted to the sponsoring organization for approval and a badge and sticker of completion would be issued. By making it regional, a sailor could collect one from each region. The list would include inland waters and all sailing trips within a region would have to be completed by the same boat. You couldn't qualify by renting a boat on Lake Champlain, for example. You have to trailer your boat to the location.

This is just a quick list for the purposes of example, off the top of my head. Launch sites, destinations, overnight parameters, specific or general would have to be considered. Maybe you sail to and have your picture taken drinking a beer at a specific bar, get the bar owner's support. Maybe you stand by the breakers on Otter Cliffs or take a picture of your boat within view of Owl's head light house or something. Get people interested in collecting the accomplishments and the badges of honor, so to speak. I would be happy to design them for SBO if they want to sponsor the promotion.

I was going to make up my own personal list for taking Dragonfly to. My original plan was 50 miles out, 50 miles back, at least. Then, it's "50 50s."

It worked amazingly well for the AMC.

-Will (Dragonfly)
Interesting idea. While most like the idea of SAILING and not TRAILERING, the idea is not without merit. Someone tried a similar trick in Minnesota a few years back. They learned a lot, and went through three boats in one season. I personally think my boat is much safer in the water than on the road, and try and minimize the time she spends at 55MPH.

https://www.sailmagazine.com/cruising/sailing-minnesotas-10000-lakes
 
Jun 29, 2010
1,287
Beneteau First 235 Lake Minnetonka, MN
So, my idea, of which I have been cogitating on for quite some time, is to come up with a list of 50 sails. I would make it regional, say, New England, as an example, and these sails have to be a minimum length (something in the neighborhood of 30 miles one way), so over night most of the time, but good solid lengthy sails. Maybe South to North on Lake Champlain, Rockport to Matinicus, circumnavigate Mount Desert Island, Boston to Provincetown, Meredith to Wolfeboro on Lake Winnipesaukee. That type of thing. A log would then be submitted to the sponsoring organization for approval and a badge and sticker of completion would be issued. By making it regional, a sailor could collect one from each region. The list would include inland waters and all sailing trips within a region would have to be completed by the same boat. You couldn't qualify by renting a boat on Lake Champlain, for example. You have to trailer your boat to the location.

This is just a quick list for the purposes of example, off the top of my head. Launch sites, destinations, overnight parameters, specific or general would have to be considered. Maybe you sail to and have your picture taken drinking a beer at a specific bar, get the bar owner's support. Maybe you stand by the breakers on Otter Cliffs or take a picture of your boat within view of Owl's head light house or something. Get people interested in collecting the accomplishments and the badges of honor, so to speak. I would be happy to design them for SBO if they want to sponsor the promotion.

I was going to make up my own personal list for taking Dragonfly to. My original plan was 50 miles out, 50 miles back, at least. Then, it's "50 50s."

It worked amazingly well for the AMC.

-Will (Dragonfly)
Trailering your boat, rigging it, sailing, de-rigging it, and trailering it to another spot to repeat is much different than hiking trails. Considering the time alone to do this, I doubt many would take it up. Anything longer than 20 feet or so would be a pain in the @@@ after a few runs. I am not in to collecting "stickers of accomplishment" anymore as I am, well, an adult. Its a bit of a romantic idea and a nice one at that but, the practicality factor of it is pretty low.
I like how we promote sailing at WYC in conjunction with the sailing center. We start'em at 6 years old in Kinder Prams and a fair number of these kids end up sailing in HS and college. There are also some that sail on the member's boats in races. Both on Minnetonka and up in Bayfield on the bigger boats. Maybe have your club start something like that instead of a badge or sticker.
 
Oct 19, 2017
7,733
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
Maybe have your club start something like that instead of a badge or sticker.
I will put it to the committee. Since my club is only one person big you would think decisions like that would be easily passed, but au contraire.

- Will (Dragonfly)
 
Sep 20, 2014
1,320
Rob Legg RL24 Chain O'Lakes
That's goofy thing here. We have a very large number of lakes. That's one reason sailing flourished here in the past. Half the city disappears every weekend to head to them. Fishing boats, pontoon boats, jetskis, ski boats ? sure. sailing... nowhere what it was. The annual boat show has ZERO sailboats.
Don't miss the part about the 10 hp limit. The roar of power boats takes away the best part about sailing; quiet.

Of course we have some nice big cooling lakes, but they don't allow sailboats because they think it is too dangerous. Hmm, if a storm kicks up, and you have big waves, what do you want to be on, a 12 ft Jon boat with a 7 hp outboard, or a 24 ft keel boat with a 9 hp outboard?
 
Mar 20, 2015
3,094
C&C 30 Mk1 Winnipeg
While most like the idea of SAILING and not TRAILERING, the idea is not without merit.
I see it as similar to cottages. Lots of people have them here.

I grew up with that whole thing....
Same place every summer... see the same people.... until my dad bought a 20' travel trailer and we started hauling it all over North America.
That was a lot more interesting, educational, and fun.

My wife and I both hate the idea of a cottage for many reasons, so we never went that direction.
For road trips,we mainly focus on back roads, or at least stay off the main highways, with a tent in the back of the car. Wake surrounded by a flock of sheep, while "dispersed camping" for free, with no cell signal, at the top of a pass in Routt National Forest ?
Done it, and absolutely love that.

Owning a trailerable boat is the closest we'll personally get to a travel trailer.
A travel trailer limits where we can go on land, but a sailboat allows us to get to places that a car/truck cannot.
That's our main driver for wanting to tow it places. The more remote the better.

So do you sail for racing ? for cruising the same places every summer ? for cruising to places you haven't been to ?
I've always figured that option 3 was the whole point of trailerable sailboats with sleeping accommodations.
Why bother with the hassle of a swing keel if you aren't trailering it a decent distance at least once a season ?

It comes down to how many C22s do you need to sell, to justify making them ? Are there enough people that like trailerable sailboats, to get those sales ?

I'm guessing that if you promote the idea of trailer sailboats as a way to get your family to places they would not otherwise see, there would be more than enough customers to pay 50k or 70k. My small area of the planet is perfect for it, but I suspect the promotion is lacking here. (or that bus has left the terminal and too many people are moving on from bothering with anything that takes effort and a sense of adventure)
 
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Mar 20, 2015
3,094
C&C 30 Mk1 Winnipeg
they don't allow sailboats because they think it is too dangerous.
Seriously ? They limit sailboats ? I've seen many places that limit or ban outboards.. but banning sailboats ? Goofy.

Which lakes/where ? Illinois ?
 
Oct 19, 2017
7,733
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
I recognize that not everyone is interested in trailering. I did it with my hobie because those were the circumstances I lived in. I hardly gave it a thought beyond, where can I get my boat in the water and sail.
Going after and collecting accomplishments for a "badge" may seem childish, but people, adults, collect all kinda of things, including knowledge and accomplishments, for the self satisfaction, for the comradery and community, and for the bragging rights.
My idea of the 50 50s Challenge or whatever name to call it, maybe the '25 30s Challenge', wasn't for getting people who own and sail their trailersailer in more places. That is just the mechanism. The idea was to promote new interest in trailersailers like the C22.
If it worked the way it works for the 48 4000 footers in NH, it would go something like this:
A potential sailor is at a party or an event of some sort. Two people who recognise each other start talking nearby. "Hey John, that's a nice little sailboat I saw you on the other day. What kind of boat is it?"
"A Catalina 22. I was sailing to Nantucket for the weekend."
"Oh yeah? You should have called me. I could have gotten you there in a quarter of the time, heh he he."
John responds, "Ha ha ha, yeah but that's not the point of taking my sailboat. Besides, that made number 23 of my 50 50s Challenge."
"Your what? 50 50s Challenge?"
Yeah, there's this challenge of 50 sailing trips that are at least 50 miles long, some are over a hundred. I'm trying to complete them all."
"Really, what do you get when you complete them?"
"Mostly, it's just a chance to get out and get some real sailing in and try new places, but at the end, I get a badge to sew onto my dodger and a bumper sticker for my car, plus bragging rights and my name on the SBO's 50 50s Challenge log. It takes a lot of challenging sailing to finish them all."
Now this is about where our hero interrupts.
"Excuse me, I couldn't help over hear. You said there's a challenge called the 50 50s Challenge and people are doing this just for the achievement and a badge? I've been thinking about getting a 16 foot bowrider. Maybe I should get something a little bigger, that the family can spend the night in?! The 50 50s Challenge sounds like a good excuse to get my family on the water more."
The response would be something like, "Well, if your interested in doing the 50 50s Challenge, it will have to be a trailerable sailboat. You can't earn it in a power boat. Why don't you look at the new Catalina 22s, they should accomidate your family for a weekend and one will cost you about the same money as your basic 16 foot bowrider, maybe a little less with the motor included."
"Does it need to be trailerable to qualify?"
Answer, "Not strictly by the rules of the challenge. It just needs to be a sailboat, but some of the starting points and destinations are on lakes or far apart. You can't really do it in anything but a trailersailer. Why don't you go online to sailboatowners.com and download the rules. That will tell you everything you need to know. I already completed by Gulf Coast Challenge and my Southeast Challenge. When I've finished the New England Challenge, I'll concentrate on the Yankee Challenge. I've done about eight of those sails anyways. There's no time limit. I'm having a blast. I think there's only one guy, his name's 'Super Sailer Will', who's done all the challenges in the US, Canada and South America. I hear he's in Europe working on the Western Med Challenge right now."
This would be the point at which our "real sailor" pulls out his Samsung and starts showing the pictures he took of his various adventures.;)
Done! A new C22 owner is born, along with that, a new SBO member too.

- Will (Dragonfly)
 
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Grotto

.
Feb 18, 2018
273
Catalina 22 Wilmington
Bringing this thread back from the dead with a follow up question. I was looking at the Rhodes 22 sight and General Boats has a pretty unique business model, end to end support. Buy from them, and they are your partner and will even sell it when you are done with your rhodes. They also refurbish/recycle old Rhodes and sell them at a decent price (vs a new hull) I think this is the future of the 22 and other small trailerables. These hills last a very long time but as we all know need maintenance and updates. If catalina “bought back” old hulls recycled and then resold as factory rebuilt when folks were moving up (keeps brand loyalty) keeps hulls out of the landfill (for a time nothing lasts forever) and plays well with the “responsible company” narrative we all love so much. Thoughts?
 
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Mar 20, 2015
3,094
C&C 30 Mk1 Winnipeg
If I was buying a new trailerable it wouldn't be a new C22 Sport. It would be a faster, lighter and more modern boat.

As for refurbished, I would do like everyone else does.. do it myself.

Most trailerable boats don't have the niche that Rhodes 22 has. Nor the quality. The Rhodes 22 has much higher value than a C22 so there could be profit for a company to refurb them, but I don't see that being possible with the C22.

Every C22 I see that was refurbed by owners, sells for WAY less than the the cost of refurnishment. The value and therefore business profit isn't there.
 
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Grotto

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Feb 18, 2018
273
Catalina 22 Wilmington
If I was buying a new trailerable it wouldn't be a new C22 Sport. It would be a faster, lighter and more modern boat.

As for refurbished, I would do like everyone else does.. do it myself.

Most trailerable boats don't have the niche that Rhodes 22 has. Nor the quality. The Rhodes 22 has much higher value than a C22 so there could be profit for a company to refurb them, but I don't see that being possible with the C22.

Every C22 I see that was refurbed by owners, sells for WAY less than the the cost of refurnishment. The value and therefore business profit isn't there.
Would being able to “unload” your 22 easily with the manufacturer with credit toward a new(er) bigger boat in the catalina lineup sway your decision on the new bigger boat?
 
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