A lost art: Conserving ice.

TomY

Alden Forum Moderator
Jun 22, 2004
2,758
Alden 38' Challenger yawl Rockport Harbor
I'm looking for a fun winter project under the cover. We're spending more time on board in season these days. How often we need to replenish things is on my mind.

Coastal sailing is a feast underway, for us. We like to prepare and eat fresh food along the way. Naturally, my first thought is the icebox.

22 seasons use, I haven't done a thing to it, thanks to Aldens solid design and building in 1961.

But I have melted hundreds of pounds of ice in it.

It has a separate sump in the bilge that holds about a gallon of wastewater. There is a hand pump under the counter that pumps that out via a T on the galley sink drain. It's easy, maintenance-free, and foolproof.

Ice box.JPG


In less than two hours yesterday - thanks to good old-fashioned 'stick building', I managed a full commitment to improving it.

Stick built.jpeg


No surprise, it is insulated, sort of,... with the 50s-60s polystyrene. The stuff is flying all over the saloon now.

Polysterene foam.jpeg


There's a full 2" all around the SS liner. The liner is suspended from the counter(a lip is screwed into the perimeter of the curb for the 2" lid.

I expected to remove the countertop (I'd love to replace the '61 Formica but Mary Ann loves it's retro look,(it matches the plastic-ware - oh well). But I see I don't have to as I can slide new insulation into place all around.

Ice box front panel removed.jpeg


Right out of the gate I could achieve near double the R-value by using polyisocyanurate material.

There has been a lot of condensation over the years (61) around the copper outlet pipe (lower left of box). Hmmm. I'm thinking of encasing that in foam somehow, and perhaps insulating the hose that connects to it and leads to the sump.

Not sure a raised loop would help that much but might hinder drainage. Always going to be a loss but the system works so well I can't un-improve that. A shut-off would likely mean flooded food.

What about spray foams? I'm familiar with the products. There are guns and hoses that can get into crannies and maybe help seal areas around corners? I even thought about a hybrid system; say 1 1/2" Iso-foam sheet and then a foam envelope between that and the SS box?

After the product, the installation will be the most important. I'm thinking of trying a better air sealing envelope than the one I found. Plus I could use a bit of expanding foam to press the foam board against the SS box.

I'm only expecting to reduce our time between adding ice. Ice is cheap and plentiful in our cruising ground but more time between would be nice.

Our typical icebox underway is packed full with fresh food - and ice, most locally picked along the way (half the fun), and has to have space for an average of 40 pounds of ice blocks.

So what can I do to get the most out of this meager 2" space around the box?

Ice box full.jpeg


Now that we are a 3 sailboat family (our 2 kids now live in town), I expect the icebox is going into overdrive in the coming seasons (think raft-ups). Xmas brunch 2021. We like to cook!

Xmas brunch 2021.jpg
 

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Jan 11, 2014
11,321
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Interesting project.

The loop in the drain doesn't need to be very big, just enough to allow some water to sit in pipe so it blocks air flow, an inch or tow should be sufficient.

What about lining the inside of the box with fiberglass panels?
 

TomY

Alden Forum Moderator
Jun 22, 2004
2,758
Alden 38' Challenger yawl Rockport Harbor
Interesting project.

The loop in the drain doesn't need to be very big, just enough to allow some water to sit in pipe so it blocks air flow, an inch or tow should be sufficient.

What about lining the inside of the box with fiberglass panels?
What do you mean by 'fiberglass panels', Dave? Something removable? I'm thinking about the loop or water trap. That might help as long as it still drains on on it's own above a couple inches of melt.
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,321
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Tom, I'm thinking about the fiberglass panels from a home center often used to line showers, smooth on one side, pebble grain on the other.

Not exactly sure how to attach them so they could be easily removed. You're much more creative in that area than I am. Silicone caulk might work. The cheap stuff does not have strong adhesive properties, so it just be popped off. Or perhaps a rail of some form to hold the upper edges in place, a piece of ½" blue foam insulation to wedge the bottom edges and aluminum vent tape to seal the corners. This would be a PITA to take apart for cleaning more than once a year.

Doing this would not be very expensive and require minimal modification to the structure, i.e., screw holes and the like.
 

dmax

.
Jul 29, 2018
969
O'Day 35 Buzzards Bay

dLj

.
Mar 23, 2017
3,372
Belliure 41 Sailing back to the Chesapeake
Vacuum panels are the ultimate in insulation - R50 per inch.
If you can get these to fit – these would be fantastic! My guess is you could get panels that would come close to fitting, but then you'd have to seal the connections/edges. But I haven't looked into if these folk sell a way to seal the panels. If they have that, then this may be the way to go.

What about spray foams? I'm familiar with the products. There are guns and hoses that can get into crannies and maybe help seal areas around corners? I even thought about a hybrid system; say 1 1/2" Iso-foam sheet and then a foam envelope between that and the SS box?
Spray foams are excellent. Get closed cell urethane spray foam. They don't have the R value of those vacuum panels, but are the next step and are typically running in the R6 to R7 range. So in 2 inches you'd be getting R12 to R14 range insulation. Plus they seal so you'd have a huge improvement over your current insulation.

After the product, the installation will be the most important. I'm thinking of trying a better air sealing envelope than the one I found. Plus I could use a bit of expanding foam to press the foam board against the SS box.
Here I'm going to respectfully disagree. The installation is the single most important part of this. Then comes the product. :)

So what can I do to get the most out of this meager 2" space around the box?
In my opinion, get the vacuum panels to fit as closely as possible. Use closed cell urethane foam to seal all joints, if the vacuum panels don't have a sealing system easily applicable. Make sure all joints are perfectly sealed.

Having an insulated, perfectly sealed container is your number one goal. If you can't achieve that using the vacuum panels, then better to go with all spray foam.

dj
 

TomY

Alden Forum Moderator
Jun 22, 2004
2,758
Alden 38' Challenger yawl Rockport Harbor
Vacuum panels are the ultimate in insulation - R50 per inch.
Has anyone used this system? I can't get much info from the website on fitting the irregular shapes I would need or installation around an existing box like this
Thoughts?
 
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PaulK

.
Dec 1, 2009
1,222
Sabre 402 Southport, CT
You should certainly be able to fit a vacuum panel across the front of the icebox, and then add pieces that went outboard as far as they could before hitting the hull. Foam and isocyanuarate for the rest - it would be a big improvement over what it was previously. How much do the panels cost, however? We considered adding refrigeration to our old boat, but decided we could buy about 20 years' worth of ice for what it would cost. You may get to a point of diminishing returns on your improvements.
 

capta

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Jun 4, 2009
4,766
Pearson 530 Admiralty Bay, Bequia SVG
Fishermen have been using ice to keep their catch fresh and cool for quite some time, and for most of that time without insulation.
I believe the secret to keeping ice for a longer time is using salt. Blocks are not as efficient as crushed ice (I suppose cubes would do) perhaps because of a greater surface area?
 
Nov 30, 2020
79
Macgregor 22 Dania, FL
Can you get the Admiral to make an insulated comforter like you would have on a bed? But sized to fit the area over the icebox.
 
May 24, 2004
7,129
CC 30 South Florida
One thing that we used to do was fill the cooler with frozen meats and pre-prepared dishes and also freeze our drinking water in jugs and store them in the cooler. Drinks and snacks were kept in a separate smaller cooler were frequent opening and closing would not affect the main cooler. At one time we considered removing the innards from a dorm refrigerator and using them to convert the cooler into a refrigerator but ultimately ended installing a complete dorm refrigerator in the cabinetry of the boat. We ran it with a 1500 watt inverter from our house battery bank. After being precooled using shore power if would average using around 4.5 Amps per hour in 90F degree weather. What made traveling possible was that had a portable Honda 2000 generator which at the end of the day would allow us to fully recharge our batteries. We now have a different boat with a refrigerator freezer but still freeze water jugs and premade good hearty meals in order to conserve power. Full time cruisers are now using lithium battery banks charged by solar panels with sophisticated controllers and monitoring systems allowing them to run refrigeration 24/7. For the rest of us we still use inboard generators.
 
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Tom J

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Sep 30, 2008
2,301
Catalina 310 Quincy, MA
Full time cruisers are now using lithium battery banks charged by solar panels with sophisticated controllers and monitoring systems allowing them to run refrigeration 24/7. For the rest of us we still use inboard generators.
I live aboard each season, and run my fridge 24/7. The boat and fridge are 2003 vintage, and my 320 watts of solar panels keep everything running fine. Batteries are 4, six volt deep cycles, lead acid. No monitoring system, except the readout on the MPPT solar charger, which is sufficient. A lithium battery bank would be nice, but, for now, I'm good. It wouldn't be that hard to get rid of the inboard generators.
 
Dec 28, 2015
1,837
Laser, Hunter H30 Cherubini Tacoma
Sounds like the SS liner that is screwed to the bottom of the countertop is a significant heat sink. I’d figure out a way to isolate that then add rigid foam panels to the inside of the box while improving the lid seal and lid insulation if it doesn’t have enough.
 
May 24, 2004
7,129
CC 30 South Florida
I live aboard each season, and run my fridge 24/7. The boat and fridge are 2003 vintage, and my 320 watts of solar panels keep everything running fine. Batteries are 4, six volt deep cycles, lead acid. No monitoring system, except the readout on the MPPT solar charger, which is sufficient. A lithium battery bank would be nice, but, for now, I'm good. It wouldn't be that hard to get rid of the inboard generators.
That sounds like a good solid system with plenty solar and battery storage capacity. The reason we have to have power generators is that in Florida with prevalent summer temperatures in the 90s and humidity levels above 95% we need to run air conditioners to be able to spend a comfortable night at anchor. Affordable technology is just not there yet to be able to run the A/C of the batteries. As a consequence of having the generator we might as well use the capacity to simultaneously recharge our batteries overnight. This has allowed us to have a smaller house battery bank of 220 Ah. As far as noise concerns almost every boat at anchorage in Florida is running one. Have tried it all fans, wind socks, deck tents but the humidity is unrelenting.
 
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RoyS

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Jun 3, 2012
1,739
Hunter 33 Steamboat Wharf, Hull, MA
Was in a marina overnight that sold ice. Asked the counter girl for twenty pounds of ice cubes. She said sorry they did not have twenty pounds of ice cubes but did have a twenty pound block of ice. Further inquiry yielded from her that all they had were five pound bags of ice cubes, no twenties. This was late in the season. How many others had she turned away over the summer?
 
Oct 22, 2014
20,989
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
Ahhhh Roy the effects of new math education. Wait till the math has more than one correct answer comes about. Then we may all be in trouble when the barista has to decide which cup to give you for your 12 ounce Latte...:yikes:
 

Sailm8

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Feb 21, 2008
1,746
Hunter 29.5 Punta Gorda
For short cruises, we fill the bottom of the box with bags of packing peanuts to fill up the unused space. We do have refrigeration and bungy cord frozen stuff to the outside of the freezer box.
 
Mar 26, 2011
3,399
Corsair F-24 MK I Deale, MD
I suggest checking food temperatures at different levels with an IR thermometer on a hot day. Often a full box will hold ice well, but the food actually insulates itself from the ice, resulting in areas within the box away from the ice that rise well into the 50s. Without room for the air to circulated. Keep the stuff that must be cold low and vegetables up high.

Likewise, block ice lasts longer than cube ice only because it has less area and provides less cooling. If the temperature is the same, cubes and blocks will obviously melt at the same rate on a weight bais.

There is no free lunch. Packing the box with food makes it warmer, and block ice saves space at the cost of reduced cooling. A thermometer will prove this. (Packing the bottom or side with insulation, such as peanuts, is different. That's added insulation and can only help!). The best troubleshooting / diagnosis tool is a cheap IR thermometer. It will show you the heat leaks.
 
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Jul 1, 2010
962
Catalina 350 Lake Huron
On the counter top, replacing the stainless with wood fiddles might dress it up enough it would feel like you'd have a new counter. Of course, the stainless may be more retro.
 
May 25, 2012
4,333
john alden caravelle 42 sturgeon bay, wis
i have the same system/ ice box. i also love an endless picnic of fine foods. i'm a cube guy tom. load the bottom under the lowest grate. then load a bank of ice on one side and the food on the other. food that wont be used for some days the gets a layer on it and the more food.
never put drinks in there. no one allowed in there but me. usually use a 100 - 120 lbs of cubes when loading an empty box. whenever we can i have the crew get 20lbs of cubes to top off the bank.
i can keep the food good for a week. i sail with a crew. more mouths to feed. i sail with a crew, they can hump ice. :cool:

nice to see what is under my counter tom. thanks for taking one for the 'team' :)

loose blueberries will plug the drain.
i did switch from a hand pump to a par pump years ago to drain the sump.