Hunter 33 - separation of upper structure from hull

Aug 21, 2015
15
Hunter 33 Hong Kong
I am in a syndicate that owns a 2008 Hunter 33. We bought the boat off the original owner who bought it from the factory - he states that the boat was never grounded or repaired. When we did the initial survey on the boat we noted that there was some separation of the grid where it is bonded to the hull, in the region of the keel bolts. We also noticed that the keel bolts were not vertical or parallel which seemed strange, and this was noted in the original survey report.

Recently the boat had a keel strike (probably sand) which brought the boat to a sudden stop and which resulted in much more extensive separation of the grid from the hull. The boat was lifted out of the water and inspected by a surveyor - there is no evidence of external damage and the keel / hull fairing is intact.

In light of the above (see photos) I would be interested in views / suggestions? Would you suggest dropping keel? Has anyone else experienced this type of separation? Any explanations for the canted keel bolts? It also seems strange to me that the surface underneath the keel bolt plates is not level but convex - surely it wouldn’t have come out of the factory like this? Thanks!
 

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Jan 1, 2006
7,039
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
It looks to me like the keel stub is broken from the keel pan (I'd call it). And it looks so all the way around. Hard grounding could cause that. Maybe two hard groundings. The first survey didn't recommend a repair? Did either of the surveyor check the tabbing of the bulkheads or other structural components?
Any way I would definitely get the insurance company involved, get another surveyor, and plan on dropping the keel and doing the fiberglass work to repair the keel stub or tabbing if that is what broke.
I have no idea about the canted keel bolts.
 
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Feb 21, 2013
4,638
Hunter 46 Point Richmond, CA
Ouch!!

Suggest getting one or more professional boatyards involved in assessing the damage and coming up with a repair strategy and cost.
 
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Jun 2, 2011
347
Hunter H33 Port Credit Harbour, ON.
Mine is a 2006 and has a lead keel. The mounting positions of the keel bolts looks different and so does the arrangement of the bilge area. Yours looks to be a little wider. It is hard to tell from only close up pictures. Where the upper structure is connected to the lower structure looks the same but there is no separation between the structures on mine. The base of the bilge, in the 3 locations, is not a finished flat surface. It looks like there was fiberglass buildup and no care was taken to finish it off. I have owned the boat from new and always thought that this was strange. The keel bolt plates are not sitting flat and would describe the surface as convex.

If I remember I will take some pictures on the week end.
 
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Oct 22, 2014
20,989
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
The cracks look like separation of the internal structural pan from the hull. Hunter made the hulls lighter because they affixed the structural pan to the hull. The pan provides stiffness and structure to the hull.

How that area would separate is not clear. I would guess two possibilities. Very rough water sailing that caused the hull to flex repeatedly, or improperly placed slings that stressed the pan hull connection when lifted.

Either way I would have a surveyor with knowledge of Hunter construction to examine issue and provide suggestions on how to repair. You may have stress damage in areas you can not see. Only inspection could possibly disclose the severity of the issue. Either way sailing close to home on Sundays in mild weather might be fine. I would not want to venture out racing the boat competitively into a storm without assuring that the boat was safe.
 
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Aug 21, 2015
15
Hunter 33 Hong Kong
Mine is a 2006 and has a lead keel. The mounting positions of the keel bolts looks different and so does the arrangement of the bilge area. Yours looks to be a little wider. It is hard to tell from only close up pictures. Where the upper structure is connected to the lower structure looks the same but there is no separation between the structures on mine. The base of the bilge, in the 3 locations, is not a finished flat surface. It looks like there was fiberglass buildup and no care was taken to finish it off. I have owned the boat from new and always thought that this was strange. The keel bolt plates are not sitting flat and would describe the surface as convex.

If I remember I will take some pictures on the week end.
Would appreciate some photos if you could. I find it strange that the bedding surface for the keel bolts is not flat and why / how the keel bolts are canted is a mystery. Are your keel bolts vertical? Do you have similar plates under the nuts? The positions of the bolts are different on the lead keel - we have a cast iron shoal keel on ours.

Thanks all for the input.
 

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Jun 21, 2004
2,532
Beneteau 343 Slidell, LA
Definitely appears that the structural grid has delaminated from the hull. If there was a hard grounding, many times the aft end of the keel will be driven into the hull because of the leverage of the keel being forced back and up. Regardless of the cause, the repair will consist of removing the keel and grinding the grid to facilitate multiple fiberglass layups to reattach the grid to the hull. Finally, the keel will require reattachment to the keel stub. I would hire a competent surveyor to inspect and document the damage as well as to recommend detailed instructions of the repair that is required. Would be a good idea to get your insurance company involved from the beginning, while the survey is being conducted.
This problem can likely be repaired to at least factory standards or better IF the repair is done properly. If short cuts are taken, the problem is going to reoccur. It is a fairly involved, time consuming, and expensive project. Check out YOU TUBE for videos of keel repairs. There were a couple of good ones over the summer, one was "Expedition Evans", where a young couple purchased a Beneteau 50 and performed the repairs themselves. Another was a European yard that did a similar repair on a Hanse ("Sailing Aurora"). Key is going to find a reputable yard that will perform a quality repair. Please keep us apprised of your progress.
 
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Jan 1, 2006
7,039
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
... Key is going to find a reputable yard that will perform a quality repair.
Ditto.
I don't know anything about Hong Kong boatyards. Maybe look for a place where racing boats reside - they seem to need more keel work. There's probably some good Rx's from Yacht Clubs.
 
Aug 21, 2015
15
Hunter 33 Hong Kong
Definitely appears that the structural grid has delaminated from the hull. If there was a hard grounding, many times the aft end of the keel will be driven into the hull because of the leverage of the keel being forced back and up. Regardless of the cause, the repair will consist of removing the keel and grinding the grid to facilitate multiple fiberglass layups to reattach the grid to the hull. Finally, the keel will require reattachment to the keel stub. I would hire a competent surveyor to inspect and document the damage as well as to recommend detailed instructions of the repair that is required. Would be a good idea to get your insurance company involved from the beginning, while the survey is being conducted.
This problem can likely be repaired to at least factory standards or better IF the repair is done properly. If short cuts are taken, the problem is going to reoccur. It is a fairly involved, time consuming, and expensive project. Check out YOU TUBE for videos of keel repairs. There were a couple of good ones over the summer, one was "Expedition Evans", where a young couple purchased a Beneteau 50 and performed the repairs themselves. Another was a European yard that did a similar repair on a Hanse ("Sailing Aurora"). Key is going to find a reputable yard that will perform a quality repair. Please keep us apprised of your progress.
The boat was lifted and inspected by a surveyor. After notifying the insurance company they sent out their own surveyor, the boat was lifted again and the surveyors came to different conclusions (surprise!) The first surveyor suggested dropping the keel (which is obviously a lengthy and expensive exercise) The insurance surveyor noted no external damage and recommended simply rebonding the internal structure to the hull without removing the keel.

I had some discussions with Brett Leary at Hunter and he seemed to indicate the same - that the structural grid could simply be rebounded to the hull with what he termed "putty". Considering that there is no sign of external damage to the keel or the keel / hull interface I personally don't see what the advantage would be of dropping the keel as it would be of no assistance in rebounding the grid to the hull. I know that when hunter builds the boats that the structural grid with bulkheads etc is built separately and this is then bonded to the hull, as seen here:


Apparently Hunter bonds the keel to the hull with epoxy (unlike other manufacturers) and that this forms an incredibly strong bond - I have read that a Hunter has never lost a keel (don't know if this is true).

I am still perplexed by the angled keel bolts though - it has been like that since we bought the boat - surely it doesn't come out of the factory like that?
 
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Jun 21, 2004
2,532
Beneteau 343 Slidell, LA
I had some discussions with Brett Leary at Hunter and he seemed to indicate the same - that the structural grid could simply be rebounded to the hull with what he termed "putty". Considering that there is no sign of external damage to the keel or the keel / hull interface I personally don't see what the advantage would be of dropping the keel as it would be of no assistance in rebounding the grid to the hull. I know that when hunter builds the boats that the structural grid with bulkheads etc is built separately and this is then bonded to the hull
Suggest watching the videos that I recommended on You Tube. I think you will have a better understanding of the damage that you have as well as the proper manner in which to repair. In your photos, it is apparent that you not only have debonding of the grid; however, there are several areas that exhibit cracks. You will likely not see the extent of the problem until the keel is removed. Rebonding with "putty" is not going to be adequate long term and will be nothing more that a "quick fix". I really think that you need to educate yourself about the damage and necessary repairs. Get with the first surveyor that recommended dropping the keel and find a reputable yard that can fix this properly and have them supply estimates. You, your surveyor, and repair yard may have to "go to war" with the insurance company to get them to pay for the proper repair. Of course your insurance co. wants to do the least expensive repair and be done with it; they are not necessarily concerned about the longevity of the repair, the devaluation of the boat, and your safety. In the "Expedition Evans" videos, they experienced that the damaged boat that they purchased had been poorly & improperly repaired previously, resulting in more damage before they purchased it and then required more extensive repairs as a result of the initial repair that wasnt done properly. I doubt if your keel is epoxied to the hull; if it was, the keel would not be removable for repair or replacement. It is likely attached with a strong adhesive / sealant (5200) and bolted to the interior hull. After the excess adhesive extrudes out between the keel and keel stub, gelcoat is usually applied over the seam for cosmetics and to encapsulate the adhesive/sealer at the keel/stub interface. Minimal grinding of the gelcoat is required to expose the keel/stub interface. It is not like there are multiple layups of roving or matt at that location. That is how my Hunter was built. There is no doubt in my mind as to how I would approach this major repair if it were my boat. Hope it all works out for you.
 
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Aug 21, 2015
15
Hunter 33 Hong Kong
Suggest watching the videos that I recommended on You Tube. I think you will have a better understanding of the damage that you have as well as the proper manner in which to repair. In your photos, it is apparent that you not only have debonding of the grid; however, there are several areas that exhibit cracks. You will likely not see the extent of the problem until the keel is removed. Rebonding with "putty" is not going to be adequate long term and will be nothing more that a "quick fix". I really think that you need to educate yourself about the damage and necessary repairs. Get with the first surveyor that recommended dropping the keel and find a reputable yard that can fix this properly and have them supply estimates. You, your surveyor, and repair yard may have to "go to war" with the insurance company to get them to pay for the proper repair. Of course your insurance co. wants to do the least expensive repair and be done with it; they are not necessarily concerned about the longevity of the repair, the devaluation of the boat, and your safety. In the "Expedition Evans" videos, they experienced that the damaged boat that they purchased had been poorly & improperly repaired previously, resulting in more damage before they purchased it and then required more extensive repairs as a result of the initial repair that wasnt done properly. I doubt if your keel is epoxied to the hull; if it was, the keel would not be removable for repair or replacement. It is likely attached with a strong adhesive / sealant (5200) and bolted to the interior hull. After the excess adhesive extrudes out between the keel and keel stub, gelcoat is usually applied over the seam for cosmetics and to encapsulate the adhesive/sealer at the keel/stub interface. Minimal grinding of the gelcoat is required to expose the keel/stub interface. It is not like there are multiple layups of roving or matt at that location. That is how my Hunter was built. There is no doubt in my mind as to how I would approach this major repair if it were my boat. Hope it all works out for you.
Thanks for the input.

I have previously watched the Aurora series of videos on their repair - in that case the keel had separated from the hull so obviously it was necessary to drop and rebed the keel. When you refer to the “several areas that exhibit cracking” I presume you are referring to the area circled in the attached photo? - that is not a crack, it is separation of the tabbing bonding the grid to the hull..

1633582933373.jpeg



The bedding of Hunter keels with epoxy is discussed here:

 
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Jun 2, 2011
347
Hunter H33 Port Credit Harbour, ON.
Would appreciate some photos if you could. I find it strange that the bedding surface for the keel bolts is not flat and why / how the keel bolts are canted is a mystery. Are your keel bolts vertical? Do you have similar plates under the nuts? The positions of the bolts are different on the lead keel - we have a cast iron shoal keel on ours.
Sorry, I forgot about the pictures 3 weeks ago. Here they are. There is 5 of the main bilge and one each of the forward and aft bilges where the keel bolts are. There is a couple of close ups where the 2 structures meet. The keel bolts all seem to be vertical. They are cut off so they don't look to be as long as yours. Obviously the back plates look similar. My keel is also a shoal keel but it is lead. Let me know if you have any questions about the pictures. Good luck with this.
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Aug 21, 2015
15
Hunter 33 Hong Kong
Sorry, I forgot about the pictures 3 weeks ago. Here they are. There is 5 of the main bilge and one each of the forward and aft bilges where the keel bolts are. There is a couple of close ups where the 2 structures meet. The keel bolts all seem to be vertical. They are cut off so they don't look to be as long as yours. Obviously the back plates look similar. My keel is also a shoal keel but it is lead. Let me know if you have any questions about the pictures. Good luck with this.
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Thank you very much, that helps.

Much appreciated.
 
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Jun 8, 2004
10,024
-na -NA Anywhere USA
Former Hunter dealer now retired. I had one of the first of the 33’s. It is highly suspicious. Busy this week but the following week will ask those who know and will confirm or not my suspicions.

@woofetc
Where did you buy this boat and where do Sail? Wing keel or deep fin keel? Looked at owner’ manual and only shows a stub keel where thevkeel is married to. Other than the photos sent of another boat is good to have and compare. Sent you a private message. Please respond. Next week I will get back in touch.
 
Jun 8, 2004
10,024
-na -NA Anywhere USA
I did not see any responcito questions so I would suggest the following:
First contact Mars Metals in Canada advising either deep fin or wing keel and ask about bolt pattern.

Secondly go to the forum help and ask for their input as they were firmer Hunter employees who built the boats and in warranty. There might be a charge.
 
Aug 21, 2015
15
Hunter 33 Hong Kong
An update on this issue. The boat was lifted and inspected and repaired by Dragon Marine in Hong Kong, who are known for quality work - job took around a week. They assessed that there was no need to drop the keel as there was no distress to the hull / keel interface, which is what we suspected. Their opinion was that the canted keel bolts most likely caused by the convex surface on which the bolt plates are bedded. They also mentioned that on some of the production boats the holes for the studs are actually drilled with the keel in situ and then tapped - not sure if this is the case with Hunter (cast iron keel) - there is no conceivable damage that could cause the studs to be angled in different directions.. The grid was inspected with an endoscope and the seperation was found to be limited and and did not require access holes to be cut in the grid to rebo. Grid was rebonded (can’t remember name of adhesive) and then retabbed using West system epoxy and gelcoated.

Thanks to all who provided input.

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