H38 Reefing - When, how much, in what order?

Apr 2, 2021
404
Hunter 38 On the move
So now we're starting to deliberately venture out in stiffer winds and trying to figure out the whole reefing thing. Out in 20-25kts gusting the other day, which is about 7-10 kts stronger than most of our experience (other than 2 times on the outside passage up from Ft. Lauderdale where we saw 35 in t-storms).

First question, what's the optimum/max reasonable angle of heel with this boat?
Second question, with both roller head and main sails, how do I determine where reasonable "reef points" are? (or does it matter)
What's the order of reefing and at what wind speeds? e.g. At 15kts jib to first reef, at 20 main to 1st reef, at 25......

Thanks
 
Oct 22, 2014
20,989
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
Your Hunter 38 is a Fractional rig.
S.A. Fore: 281.89 ft2 / 26.19 m2
S.A. Main: 420.85 ft2 / 39.10 m2

Not knowing the size of your foresail, but assuming a 100% Jib, I would first reef the Main to the first reef point (about 20% of the sail).

I understand that you have a mast roller reef on your main.

Your Main is the primary power system on your rig. Reducing it 20% and the induced drag associated with this action, plus the less sail in the upper third of the main sail area, all should contribute to reducing heel, making th boat more manageable. Leaving the jib out will enhance the pointing ability of the boat with the main reduced.

This is a balancing act. As you roll up the jib you not only reduce the size of the sail, you increase the disturbance of the wind moving over the sail (rolled sail is inefficient, lots of drag, lost lift).

With the Main out full you have a lot of sail up high in the mast. The Main will contribute greatly to the heeling force on the boat. You will slip (slide sideways as you heel and the keel becomes less effective) a lot in the gusts.

That is how I would attack the reefing trim. No way of knowing what else you have on the boat that contributes to boat handling (i.e. Bimini, dodger, dinghy, etc.). You need to consider the boat as a whole and take actions that can address the forces to bring the boat into balance and control.
 
  • Like
Likes: quadrille38
Apr 2, 2021
404
Hunter 38 On the move
Your Hunter 38 is a Fractional rig.
S.A. Fore: 281.89 ft2 / 26.19 m2
S.A. Main: 420.85 ft2 / 39.10 m2

Not knowing the size of your foresail, but assuming a 100% Jib, I would first reef the Main to the first reef point (about 20% of the sail).

I understand that you have a mast roller reef on your main.

Your Main is the primary power system on your rig. Reducing it 20% and the induced drag associated with this action, plus the less sail in the upper third of the main sail area, all should contribute to reducing heel, making th boat more manageable. Leaving the jib out will enhance the pointing ability of the boat with the main reduced.

This is a balancing act. As you roll up the jib you not only reduce the size of the sail, you increase the disturbance of the wind moving over the sail (rolled sail is inefficient, lots of drag, lost lift).

With the Main out full you have a lot of sail up high in the mast. The Main will contribute greatly to the heeling force on the boat. You will slip (slide sideways as you heel and the keel becomes less effective) a lot in the gusts.

That is how I would attack the reefing trim. No way of knowing what else you have on the boat that contributes to boat handling (i.e. Bimini, dodger, dinghy, etc.). You need to consider the boat as a whole and take actions that can address the forces to bring the boat into balance and control.
Thanks, good info.

I'm pretty sure its greater than 100% job, I'll have to look it up, thought it was 110% but I need to verify.
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,759
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Thanks, good info.

I'm pretty sure its greater than 100% job, I'll have to look it up, thought it was 110% but I need to verify.
It really doesn't matter. I have a masthead rig, way different than yours, but the first thing to reef is the main, NOT the jib. People would ususally reef the jib first. Why? Because it usually was a furling jib and easier than the slab reefing on a mainsail. Only because it was easier. It was still the wrong thing to do.

Reef your main first. Always.

FYI, I sailed on SF Bay from 1983 to 2016. I have a bit of experience...:)
 
Apr 2, 2021
404
Hunter 38 On the move
It really doesn't matter. I have a masthead rig, way different than yours, but the first thing to reef is the main, NOT the jib. People would ususally reef the jib first. Why? Because it usually was a furling jib and easier than the slab reefing on a mainsail. Only because it was easier. It was still the wrong thing to do.

Reef your main first. Always.

FYI, I sailed on SF Bay from 1983 to 2016. I have a bit of experience...:)
Roger that. That's actually what I have been doing, despite the order in my initial post. But thanks. Frankly I'd rather have a traditional main but beggars can't be choosers lol
 
Feb 21, 2013
4,638
Hunter 46 Point Richmond, CA
..........First question, what's the optimum/max reasonable angle of heel with this boat?
Second question, with both roller head and main sails, how do I determine where reasonable "reef points" are?........ What's the order of reefing and at what wind speeds?...s jib to first reef, at 20 main to 1st reef, at 25......
I will take stab at your questions based on my Hunter 386 and 46 experience with furling mainsail and jib:
  • optimum/max reasonable angle of heel: 15 - 20 degrees closed hauled and beam reach
  • how do I determine where reasonable "reef points" are? for furling mainsail use your spreaders. For your jib, use the 1st and 2nd reefing marks sewn in by the sial maker (if you do not have them, take it to a sailmaker to sew them in) OR experiment and mark your furling line with tape at reefing points that balance the boat and removes weather helm at different wind conditions say 15, 20, 25 knots wind speed.
  • What's the order of reefing and at what wind speeds? 1st reef 18, 2nd reef 23 and 3rd reef 25 knots
 
Jul 27, 2011
4,988
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
It really doesn't matter. I have a masthead rig, way different than yours, but the first thing to reef is the main, NOT the jib. People would ususally reef the jib first. Why? Because it usually was a furling jib and easier than the slab reefing on a mainsail. Only because it was easier. It was still the wrong thing to do.

Reef your main first. Always.

FYI, I sailed on SF Bay from 1983 to 2016. I have a bit of experience...:)
Experience noted. But, I question your “rule.” My experience in racing says that when the wind pipes up and you’re sailing a masthead sloop, the first reduction is to go to a smaller headsail. That’s why we have numbers 1, 2, 3, & 4 of genoas and jibs. It stands to reason that would translate to “reefing” a roller headsail before even thinking about reefing the mainsail. I rarely (if ever) see racers on a masthead bring in the mainsail before shortening a headsail if there is a smaller one aboard.

Fractional rigs are different perhaps; more as John noted. The mainsail, rather than the headsail, is the power sail. Those B&R rigs with self-tending or otherwise 100%-only jibs, etc, would need to shorten the mainsail first for an effect. So there is the logic on that point.
 
Last edited:
Jul 27, 2011
4,988
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
Experience noted. But, I question your “rule.” My experience in racing says that when the wind pipes up and you’re sailing a masthead sloop, the first reduction is to go to a smaller headsail. That’s why we have numbers 1, 2, 3, & 4 of genoas and jibs. It stands to reason that would translate to “reefing” a roller headsail before even thinking about reefing the mainsail. I rarely (if ever) see racers on a masthead bring in the mainsail before shortening a headsail if there is a smaller one aboard.

Fractional rigs are different perhaps; more as John noted. The mainsail, rather than the headsail, is the power sail. Those B&R rigs with self-tending or otherwise 100%-only jibs, etc, would need to shorten the mainsail first for an effect. So there is the logic on that point.
I raced a few times on the J-35 masthead sloop. In southern California it’s not uncommon for a series of buoy races (mini-regatta) to begin around noon and run the race in 8-10 knots, but the last race might be run in 15 to 18 kt TWS. The J-35 might switch from a No 1 to a No 2 Genoa before starting the last race. Certainly does not reef the mainsail, etc. So, I don’t know what wind ranges Stu is referring to above. The next step might be to go to a No 3, then a No 4 near 22 kt TWS. These guys almost never reef the mainsail because they want it up for the downwind legs.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes: jssailem
Jul 27, 2011
4,988
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
I will take stab at your questions based on my Hunter 386 and 46 experience with furling mainsail and jib:
  • optimum/max reasonable angle of heel: 15 - 20 degrees closed hauled and beam reach
  • how do I determine where reasonable "reef points" are? for furling mainsail use your spreaders. For your jib, use the 1st and 2nd reefing marks sewn in by the sial maker (if you do not have them, take it to a sailmaker to sew them in) OR experiment and mark your furling line with tape at reefing points that balance the boat and removes weather helm at different wind conditions say 15, 20, 25 knots wind speed.
  • What's the order of reefing and at what wind speeds? 1st reef 18, 2nd reef 23 and 3rd reef 25 knots
Because I sail with a No 2 furling Genoa already on a fractional rig, I naturally look to the mainsail as the first step in shortening sail if I’m going any distance close-hauled in much over 18 kt TWS b/c that brings the AWS to nearly 25 kt. But reefing the mainsail is not the only option. Lower the traveler, flatten the top with the back-stay adjuster, apply your Cunningham. Basically, learn more about sail trim and de-powering your rig.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes: jssailem
Apr 2, 2021
404
Hunter 38 On the move
I raced a few times on the J-35 masthead sloop. In southern California it’s not uncommon for a series of buoy races (mini-regatta) to begin around noon and run the race in 8-10 knots, but the last race might be run in 15 to 18 kt TWS. The J-35 might switch from a No 1 to a No 2 Genoa before starting the last race. Certainly does not reef the mainsail, etc. So, I don’t know what wind ranges Stu is referring to above. The next step might be to go to a No 3, then a No 4 near 22 kt TWS. These guys almost never reef the mainsail because they want it up for the downwind legs.
Interesting, but I'm not sure applicable? I'm not racing rather cruising (eventually). Reefing for comfort and safety, including ease of shorthanded sailing, with optimum performance important, but ranked lower than if I were racing.
 
Apr 2, 2021
404
Hunter 38 On the move
Because I sail with a No 2 furling Genoa already, I naturally look to the mainsail as the first step in shortening sail if I’m going any distance close-hauled in much over 18 kt TWS b/c that brings the AWS to nearly 25 kt. But reefing the mainsail is not the only option. Lower the traveler, flatten the top with the back-stay adjuster, apply your Cunningham. Basically, learn more about sail trim and de-powering your rig.
No backstay, no cunningham. I do have a traveler, which I use initially. Still working on sail trim. Original sails probably doesn't help although they appear lightly used they are still 14 years old.
 
Jul 27, 2011
4,988
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
Interesting, but I'm not sure applicable? I'm not racing rather cruising (eventually). Reefing for comfort and safety, including ease of shorthanded sailing, with optimum performance important, but ranked lower than if I were racing.
There are two conflated points here. You’re likely interested in your comfort zone. I’m suggesting the proper sequence to keep a boat in optimum trim going fast where there is a difference in the sequence between a masthead sloop and a fractional B&R rig, whether racing or not. That’s all.
 
Last edited:
Jul 27, 2011
4,988
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
No backstay, no cunningham. I do have a traveler, which I use initially. Still working on sail trim. Original sails probably doesn't help although they appear lightly used they are still 14 years old.
I don’t know much about longevity of in-mast furling mainsails. Perhaps have a sail loft evaluate it while you are sailing.
 
Oct 29, 2016
1,915
Hunter 41 DS Port Huron
On our 41DS I reef the main to about 50% when we see 15's gusting to 20 after 20 kts start bringing in the 115% jib to balance the helm. Optimum heel is around 15* thats when she is fastest.

@Kings Gambit the B&R rigs of our Hunters set the mast forward thereby moving the center of effort forward. In order to reduce sail area and keep the boat in balance under higher wind condition the main is reefed first then the head sail which is approximately 1/2 the size of the main. These boats sail (as with almost all boats) fastest when at or around 15* of heal.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes: jssailem
Apr 2, 2021
404
Hunter 38 On the move
There are two conflated points here. You’re likely interested in your comfort zone. I’m suggesting the proper sequence to keep a boat in optimum trim going fast where there is a difference in the sequence between a masthead sloop and a fractional B&R rig, whether racing or not. That’s all.
No I don't think there's any conflation. I think we're talking about "comfort zone" in two different senses. And sure, when you're heading to a destination (cruising) the best speed configuration is exactly the same as the best speed configuration when you're racing (assuming same conditions, point of sail, loading etc etc).

What I'm saying is on a 12 hour sail from, say, Lake Worth to Ft. Lauderdale, comfort is a more important consideration than on a leg of a round the bouys race. And comfort is a big part of safety on long trips, discomfort leads adds to stress, exhaustion, decreases mental agility and decision making etc etc etc

As far as "comfort level" in the sense of feeling like I'm exceeding my abilities....in the recent past I was getting paid to fly low level aerobatics, in close formation........at night. So I'm certainly used to pushing my limits and enjoy doing it safely. :)
 
  • Like
Likes: Kings Gambit
Jan 1, 2006
7,039
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
On my H356 with roller main I would go to a reef in the main at around 15 -17 kts. true. At that point my boat was getting overpowered. As the wind became higher than that I might roll in some more but by the time I got to the second main reef all that happened was the sail became far too deep and created even more drag and heel. That's because the main was tired and at the second reef it was just the soft belly of the sail deployed. If it got even more windy I would roll the main in until there was about 80% in. That would remove the belly and the boat could stand up again. We'd be mostly on the jib which I would reduce if necessary but at that point I'm starting the engine and heading in or face the wrath of the Blonde.
Back to my point. It's not only the sail area that overpowers a boat but also the depth of the sail which is affected by the condition of the sailcloth and the stretch of the running rigging (Out haul on the Hunter in mast's).
 
Apr 2, 2021
404
Hunter 38 On the move
Quick question for clarification, when we're talking reefing wind speeds, are we talking AWS or TWS? I'm guessing AWS but correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Feb 21, 2013
4,638
Hunter 46 Point Richmond, CA
One reefing strategy I use is to reef the head sail first then furl the mainsail.........this depowers the boat sufficiently to controllably reef the mainsail, particularily if single handling and on autopilot.