Diesel Won't Start - Completely Frustrated.

Dec 29, 2008
805
Treworgy 65' LOA Custom Steel Pilothouse Staysail Ketch St. Croix, Virgin Islands
Jeff from Great Lakes Diesel will becoming out tomorrow.
Good people! Jim helped us out a lot when we were on Lake Erie.
 

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
6,745
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
Neutral lockout switch in shift lever? Jiggle it back and forth slowly while you have the key turned, to see if it makes a difference. We wasted $700 having our starter rebuilt about 16 years ago, only to find out that our neutral switch was mid-adjusted.
Wow, why did it cost $700 to rebuild a starter? And 16 years ago! One of the best shops in my area does it for about $100.

Too bad there's no neutral lamp as on a motorcycle, so you can see if the switch is working.
 
Nov 22, 2011
1,192
Ericson 26-2 San Pedro, CA
Neutral lockout switch in shift lever? Jiggle it back and forth slowly while you have the key turned, to see if it makes a difference. We wasted $700 having our starter rebuilt about 16 years ago, only to find out that our neutral switch was mid-adjusted.
Would that make the panel not light up?
 
Dec 29, 2008
805
Treworgy 65' LOA Custom Steel Pilothouse Staysail Ketch St. Croix, Virgin Islands
Wow, why did it cost $700 to rebuild a starter? And 16 years ago! One of the best shops in my area does it for about $100.

Too bad there's no neutral lamp as on a motorcycle, so you can see if the switch is working.
I see the problem is already solved.

Yeah, before we knew any better we had the marina do the work. I suspect a lot of the cost was the labor removing and reinstalling it. Plus, I doubt they rebuilt it. I think they swapped it for another rebuilt one. Older and wiser now...
 
Dec 29, 2008
805
Treworgy 65' LOA Custom Steel Pilothouse Staysail Ketch St. Croix, Virgin Islands
Would that make the panel not light up?
Yes, good point. I see the problem was found to be a bad crimp. That makes more sense. I was overlooking that part.
 

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
6,745
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
I see the problem is already solved.

Yeah, before we knew any better we had the marina do the work. I suspect a lot of the cost was the labor removing and reinstalling it. Plus, I doubt they rebuilt it. I think they swapped it for another rebuilt one. Older and wiser now...
Well, I can see the labor of taking it out and putting it back, plus a rebuild, adding up to that. My starter is a bitch to remove and replace. One bolt you can only get like 1/6th of a turn on it at a time, and it's a long, fine thread bolt.
 
Dec 29, 2008
805
Treworgy 65' LOA Custom Steel Pilothouse Staysail Ketch St. Croix, Virgin Islands
Well, I can see the labor of taking it out and putting it back, plus a rebuild, adding up to that. My starter is a bitch to remove and replace. One bolt you can only get like 1/6th of a turn on it at a time, and it's a long, fine thread bolt.
True that. I replaced the mechanical lift pump last year. Took 2 1/3l2 hours to get it off, and 3 1/2 hours to out the new one on. Primarily because you can only get at it with your left hand, can’t see it and touch it at the same time (unless you have an eyeball in your palm, and you have to hold it in place against the tension from the drive lever (with one hand) while starting the bolt (with the same hand), and with gasket goop on it, and all by feel, since you can’t see it. Two opposing thumbs on one had would also be helpful - one on each side. That said, persistence (stubbornness) got er done. Oh, and disconnect the batteries before sticking A socket wrench down in that hole near the starter - duh!
 
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Nov 4, 2018
155
Hunter 28.5 Catawba Island, OH
Yeah, guys problem resolve as far as bank 1 goes. Bank 2 is another issue. Replaced the old battery (mfr date 07/18 with a new one), brought it up to charge with a separate battery charger.

I think I have compound issues going on. First, the battery switch went tango uniform. And second, I have a bad voltage meter in my panel.

To remedy this situation, I have a Blue Sea 7610 ACR waiting to be installed. I need a batter terminal fuse block and a 75 amp fuse to do the installation. My local West Marine (God, I hate them) has these parts and a battery switch in stock. I'll see tomorrow.

In the second case, my voltmeter shows voltage on the second bank as long as the battery charger is on. Once I turn the charger off I get no voltage. I'll be calling Blue Sea Monday to discuss the issue.

That's where I am right now. I did go out sailing, once, been under small craft advisories since. I know I could handle the current conditions, but why go looking for trouble.

I'll advise as the situation changes.

Oh, BTW, I spent 72 hours off the battery charger with bank 1 handling everything and never went below 12.2 volts. this is good.
 
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Nov 4, 2018
155
Hunter 28.5 Catawba Island, OH
Okay, I'm no better now than I was to start with as for bank 2.

Replaced the battery switch. Switched to bank 2 and nothing, not even idiot lights. So, it wasn't the switch, but hey, I have a new one and this is good.

Moved on to installing the ACR. Everything went well. Reconnected shore power, turn the panel back on, both AC and DC to include the battery charger. The voltmeter showed 13.6 volts, maintenance voltage, on bank 1, flip the switch to bank 2 and nothing on the voltmeter. (NOTE: the nut on the B side is as tight as I can get it. Everything is pretty tight down there. Given the stud length, I need a 9/16 deep socket to make sure its really tight. Of course, it's at home and I'm not. Next trip home and I'll make sure to bring it back with me.)

Just for ha-ha's, I force combined both banks using the both position of the battery switch. Guess what, I had charging voltage on both banks. What a concept!

I'm going to throw this out here for what it's worth. What are the ramifications of eliminating the the ACR and tying bank 2 directly to the positive bus?
 

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
6,745
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
There's something seriously wrong with this. I recommend you do a good visual inspection, literally trace the wires out from every connection, and draw a schematic diagram of what you have.
 
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Nov 4, 2018
155
Hunter 28.5 Catawba Island, OH
I do agree something is seriously wrong.

After the voltage on both banks settled to 12.8v, I switched back to bank one. Then, I flipped the the voltmeter to bank 2 and it showed nothing.

I'm going to try connecting the charge positive directly to the battery, rather than through the bus to the battery.

Every time I touch a connection, I make sure the lug crimp is good. Remember that's how all this started.

I drew a block diagram before I started. I believe I attached to my original post. There's a copy of it in the desk of the nav/com station. But, every time I look at it I'm not seeing anything wrong with the diagram. I could be staring the problem in the face and not seeing it. That's the problem with being too familar with a system. You see what you expect to, not what is actually there.
 

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
6,745
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
I just downloaded the schematic; it's really tough to view; part of it looks like this:
Screenshot from 2020-06-15 16-59-02.png
Screenshot from 2020-06-15 16-59-02.png
Screenshot from 2020-06-15 16-59-02.png
 

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
6,745
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
I went over the drawing, nothing unusual. It would be helpful to show the grounds; on my boat there's a lot going on with ground, including shunts, etc.

Based on the symptoms you describe I guess battery two is not connected at the ground end.

Can you measure across battery two with your voltmeter, and then from a ground to the positive terminal, with the battery switch and combiner off?
 

LloydB

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Jan 15, 2006
806
Macgregor 22 Silverton
I think you need to make a new wiring diagram to show how it's hooked up rather than the way you think it's hooked up because it seems to me you can't just add an ACR without changing some other circuit so it does not conflict somewhere.
If you can't read voltage on your battery when the battery charger is not turned on then you are reading the voltage from the battery charger not from the battery.
 
Nov 4, 2018
155
Hunter 28.5 Catawba Island, OH
I went over the drawing, nothing unusual. It would be helpful to show the grounds; on my boat there's a lot going on with ground, including shunts, etc.

Based on the symptoms you describe I guess battery two is not connected at the ground end.

Can you measure across battery two with your voltmeter, and then from a ground to the positive terminal, with the battery switch and combiner off?
I'm going be looking at grounds tomorrow. I haven't yet checked across the battery. (getting to bank 2 is a bear.) The only ground in bank 2's compartment is the ground to the battery. I don't think that would be much help. All the grounds connect to a bus in the engine compartment and the bus to the grounding lug of the engine. But, I will check across the battery terminals.

I think you need to make a new wiring diagram to show how it's hooked up rather than the way you think it's hooked up because it seems to me you can't just add an ACR without changing some other circuit so it does not conflict somewhere.
If you can't read voltage on your battery when the battery charger is not turned on then you are reading the voltage from the battery charger not from the battery.
I don't have ability to make up a new drawing at the moment. The original is a CAD file. That file and AutoCAD are on the home computer. I'm at the boat on a laptop.

Look at the drawing as it is. There are 2 positive buses in the compartment with bank 1. The right hand bus is all incoming charge sources, the charger and alternator. The bottom bus connection goes to bank 1 battery. The connection at the top jumps the buses. The second, left hand, bus is all outgoing positives.

Now eliminate the positive from the charger to bank 2. The ACR is connected to the top connection of the left hand bus. Jumper from right hand to left hand to ACR 'A'. The bank 2 positive that was connected to the charger is now connected to ACR 'B'. Additionally, a 75 amp fuse was installed between the alternator in and the right hand bus.

From all the drawings I found on Mainsail's Marine How-to site, the ACR should be correctly installed.

The distribution panel's voltmeter is wired to read voltage at the battery as per Blue Sea's instructions. As with bank 1, bank 2's positive to the voltmeter connection is at the positive bus of bank 2. A switch at the panel allows me to check the voltage of either bank 1 or bank 2.
 
May 24, 2004
7,129
CC 30 South Florida
One project at a time. If you have bank 1 already starting the engine, just hook up bank 2 to the second position of the switch and it will work. Later on you can mess around with battery monitors, echo chargers and wiring designs. Run a cable from the negative in Bank 1 to the negative in Bank 2 and run wires from the positives of each bank to positions 1 and 2 in the switch. Done.
 
Oct 22, 2014
20,995
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
Benny. Do you mean to run a neg wire from bank 1 to the neg bus bar and a neg wire from bank 2 to the same neg bus bar? Then confirm that a neg wire connects the neg busbar to the engine?
 
Nov 4, 2018
155
Hunter 28.5 Catawba Island, OH
Think with me here guys.

Voltage across the battery terminals - good.
- Battery is charged.
- Nothing is draining the battery.

Voltage with bank 2 on, across terminal 2 and engine ground - weak.
- Not enough voltage from the battery to terminal 2.
- By getting some voltage at terminal, the terminal fuse (300 amp) is not blown.

Checked both ends of the positive from bank 2 to terminal 2; solid connections at both ends. Checked the negative from bank 2 to ground bus; solid connections at both ends. Positive/negative round trip of 10' +/- made with 4 awg marine grade.

Check all other negative connections at ground bus and from bus to grounding connection at the engine. Checked negative connection at bank 1. Checked negative connections at the battery charger. All are good, solid connections. I have no shunts or other things in any of the grounds to worry about.

I may very well be charging the battery. None of this though explains why I'm not seeing voltage at the panel voltmeter. However, for the time being, that is a separate issue (There is one connection in that I'm considering suspect.). The real proof is in turning the keyed switch at the engine panel, getting idiot lights and starting the engine.

I'm about ready to pull the wire from bank 2 to terminal 2 to check for damage to the wire.
 
May 17, 2004
5,032
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
Voltage with bank 2 on, across terminal 2 and engine ground - weak.
Were there any loads when you tested voltage between terminal 2 and ground? If no loads, then the voltage should match the battery voltage, even if the supply wire has a degraded connection. Bad connections only degrade voltage substantially when they are carrying current (unless they’re so bad that they can’t carry the minimal current that the voltmeter draws).

Let me make sure I’ve got this straight - Battery 2 across the terminals is fine. But measuring from terminal 2 on your 1/2/B switch to ground is low, but non-zero, voltage?

Can you disconnect the wire from the terminal on the 1/2/B switch, and check voltage from the end of the wire to ground? If that is low, I’d try to get a long lead and measure the voltage from the battery end to the switch end, with the wire still disconnected from the switch. If there is no voltage difference from one end of the wire to the other than the issue is in the ground side.

If the voltage from the switch end of the wire to ground is normal when the wire is disconnected from the switch, then the switch is somehow “sucking” the #2 terminal down. Measure from #2 terminal to ground, with the battery wire still disconnected. Should be 0V, except when the switch is on B, in which case that terminal should match Battery 1. Keep on trying different combinations like this until the fault location is narrowed down.
 
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Ward H

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Nov 7, 2011
3,645
Catalina 30 Mk II Barnegat, NJ
. If there is no voltage difference from one end of the wire to the other than the issue is in the ground side.
And then use a long wire again with the voltmeter positive on the battery #2 + and the negative at various negative connections for battery #2.
 
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