Where is your radar reflector?

[CarlN]

In 2006 a ferry ran down the 26' sailboat Ouzo near the Isle of Wright. All three crew were killed.

The accident report is important reading for anyone who travels at night or in the fog in a small boat near large commercial shipping (warning - this report is longgg). The ferry's bridge was fully manned by an alert and professional British crew but they didn't see the much smaller boat in time (and never thought they hit it).

It also includes a report on radar reflectors. Most did poorly. My take away is that the angle of the radar reflector is surprisingly important to the return echo and on a sailboat this angle changes with heel. Mainsail's reference to "double catch rain" is about getting the best angle. Angle is more important than height.

http://www.maib.gov.uk/publications/investigation_reports/2007/ouzo.cfm

 

[CarlN]

I'd also argue a bit with Mainsail. Radar is very important in Maine because of the frequency of thick fog and the slow adoption of AIS transponders in the area - it seems slower than anywhere else on the US East coast. Except in Maine (or similar places), if I could have only one technology for collisions avoidance between radar and an AIS, AIS would be the clear winner.

AIS give you three things that radar doesn't:

1. A reliable closest approach and time to closest approach. While you can try to use Marpa on small boat radar, it's rarely reliable in any sort of sea. With just radar (or your eyes), it's very hard to figure out which fast moving ship to worry about.

2. With AIS you know the vessel's name (as Mainsail mentioned). If there are a dozen commercial vessels in view, hailing one without its name is unlikely to get a response.

3. The commercial ship is much more likely to see you if you transmit AIS. While a naval ship will have full time radar operators, that's just not reality on commercial ships today. These days, they are watching AIS first and radar a distant second. In a possible crossing situation, the commercial ship is likely to hail you by name first.

I realize Mainsail has and uses both AIS and radar, but too many captains are putting off installing an AIS transponder on the belief that radar alone is enough. If you are ever in waters with commercial shipping, depending solely on radar and a radar reflector when AIS transponders are $500 is taking an unnecessary risk - like not having proper navigation lights.

 

[dparilla]

I would go with a radar reflector first (lowest cost and a marked safety improvement.) Next would be to install Radar (self preservation ahead of self identification) Lastly would be to add an AIS transceiver as this would complete the picture for the other guys to see me.

Maybe it goes back to my flying, Aviate (Marinate just doesn't fit the quote), Navigate, Communicate, in that order. If I can see them, and I can navigate around them, then I want to communicate who I am. I am still one who trusts a primary radar return over an AIS transmission, but it is so much the better if I have a primary return with which to correlate the AIS track.

Just my $.02, and often not even worth that online.

 

[Brian D]

If one is worried about the angle of the reflector while heeling, all one need do is install their reflector on a resistive gimbal to keep the reflector from swinging. The gimbal will keep the reflector perpendicular to the horizontal plane. Just a thought.

 

[Donnie Griffin]

I wonder if an automotive radar detector would alert you when a large vessel was scanning you with radar. This may give you an alarm and extra time to make contact on the radio.

 

[Ron20324]

I wonder if an automotive radar detector would alert you when a large vessel was scanning you with radar. This may give you an alarm and extra time to make contact on the radio.

When car radar detectors became illegal- and would get a ticket- someone put a radar on his car, which picked up the cop's radar beam. They tried to give him a ticket, but the court decided he was within his rights, and there was no law barring the use of a radar.

 

[IH82BL8]

Mine's at West Marine. It sounds like I'd better go get it.

 

[rpwillia]

Is there such a gimbal mount?

If one is worried about the angle of the reflector while heeling, all one need do is install their reflector on a resistive gimbal to keep the reflector from swinging. The gimbal will keep the reflector perpendicular to the horizontal plane. Just a thought.

Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[Brian D]

Inquiring minds want to know.

It will cost you since I hold the patent on such a device. LOL

Take a look at the radar gimbals. Same concept. I would love to have a gimbal for my binoculars so the target object does bounce in and out of view.

 

[woodster]

I would love to have a gimbal for my binoculars so the target object does bounce in and out of view.

get a Pawleys Island hammock and hang it between the mast and the forestay and you will be gimbaled

 

[b393capt]

I use the "Echomax 230 I" Inflatable on my 39 foot cruising sailboat. I thought so much of it that I did some testing and wrote an article about it in Panbo. I am a past writer for Panbo and a current writer for Practical Sailor magazine.

Panbo article link, or google search Panbo Passive Radar Reflector
https://www.panbo.com/archives/2011/07/the_passive_radar_reflector_solution_for_sailboats.html

Link to product on landfall navigation
http://www.landfallnavigation.com/sem230i.html

(excerpt from Panbo)
It seems like nearly all sailors in the Northeast fail to use their radar reflectors. On foggy days in the northeast USA I have observed, at most, 1 in 35 sailboats sporting a radar reflector, and among them most had severe limitations being fixed mount, too small, not kept level, and more than half a combination of all three limitations. Comparatively, 90% of over 50 sailors I informally surveyed, claim to own a radar reflector, in a locker, somewhere. 100% of them described a Davis or Davis-like design. 0% have used them.

Well, no more excuses! The Echomax 230 I Inflatable passive radar reflector is an easy to deploy reflector with no sharp edges, no confusing instructions, and although big, is so soft and cuddly you can leave it up in your rigging days on end without worries and be assured, when bad weather appears, the radar cross section of your sailboat becomes significantly increased making it easier to be seen by others around you.

This product was designed for use on a life raft after storage in a ditch bag, but I have found that it overcomes the barriers to continuous use of reflectors on sailboats, as proven on my sailboat after five seasons and 3400 nm of sailing in the Northeast.

See PANBO article above

 

[Jackdaw]

I would think that if it was going to remain up forever (sort of) then you might want to see if you can spot weld the panels together.

If you try this, make sure the angles are EXACTLY 90 degrees.

 

[Gunni]

$160 for an inflatable radar reflector that will last what, maybe 2 seasons in the sun? ...and you chide folks for not keeping a radar reflector deployed 100% of the time. The Davis Echomaster will cost you $60, is made of aluminum plate, can be deployed year round and consistently gets high ratings for radar return effectivity. But never mind that, I would recommend a proactive approach to not getting run down, something similar to Dan Parilla’s advice.

We have AIS, but on a couple of occasions it has gone transmitter dark. I was receiving, but others were not seeing me. Didn’t know until I asked a tanker pilot to ID my position. I have a dedicated antenna. That could be you, not seen and clueless.

Small sailboats are notoriously hard to see on radar. No big slabs to reflect. If you are wood, forget it. So after you hang a couple of reflectors in your rigging, stand a watch, maybe burn a bunch of amp-hours on radar operation and stay in radio contact with targets my suggested policy would be to not operate in channel without situational awareness, and anchor well outside operational zones. I know people who have been run down, and people died because they violated those common sense procedures. I watched one incident where the commercial pilot ran down a sailboater while screaming on the radio, the clueless sailboater never responded, apparently his radio was not on was located in some useless location below.

 

[pateco]

I have two, both are still in bags in the cupboard with the foul weather gear which is also still new in bags. We don't get much if any fog here, and I have not had reason to use them. If I were doing a night crossing to the Bahamas, they would both be up by the spreaders on the burgee halyard.

 

[Kings Gambit]

My Davis aluminum radar reflector goes up in restricted visibility, namely when in fog or when out at night; otherwise, it's in the stb cockpit locker. I hoist it to the height of the upper spreader where there is a block. Takes only a few minutes. I don't like to leave it up hanging from a halyard b/c that line will chaff through eventually and the reflector will come down--hard. I also doubt it would last long up there in rough conditions of shorter duration for the same reason. I've been wishing to change to wire for the section near the ring on the reflector that goes through the block, but that requires a rope-wire splice that I'd have to pay to have done. I frankly do not have much confidence in their ability to significantly improve detection but I put it up for prudence. I've not had much luck hailing vessels without knowing the name.

 

[jjoptics]

You could not pay me to not have a radar reflector in Maine... I actually run my radar in clear weather too, just good practice, so I get to see the results, in the real world, with my radar, of how reflectors really work. Are reflectors perfect? No, but for the $40.00 you are simply foolish to sail around Maine or the Maritimes without one...

This boat had no reflector, painted no radar signature to speak of, other than some noise, not using or monitoring VHF, no running lights and was not running fog signals..

This is what he looked like on radar he is the little red spec just above the 18' sounding:

BTW the two boats showing up clear as day, dead ahead of us to port and starboard, were both using radar reflectors and both were under sail like the invisible boat behind us.......

I took a radar class before I had mine installed. In NJ if you have radar, you must run it all the times when underway. If you have an accident on the water and it was not your fault but you did not run your radar, you get a fine. After taking the course I never thought about a reflector because I did not have radar. Hindsight everyone should have a reflector, fog can roll in at anytime. One other thing, the instructor said that some people see the reflector getting aged and clean it up and paint them, you should never paint the reflector.
I just bought a Cat and it had one reflector mounted, I wanted to replace it and found out the one mounted was too small for that boat. I put 2 four inch tube reflectors on, one on each side (port and Starboard).

 

[Calif. Ted]

I hit one of those "fog walls" once while under sail with a Davis up on the spreader halyard, a large whale watching boat from a neighboring harbor was behind me. Once in the soup, you know how sound changes, it seemed he might be closing on me so I hailed him. Luckily I'd noted his name earlier, (Northern Lights), anyway, he said I was making a "fine" target. Made me think the things must work.

 

[Kings Gambit]

I hit one of those "fog walls" once while under sail with a Davis up on the spreader halyard, a large whale watching boat from a neighboring harbor was behind me. Once in the soup, you know how sound changes, it seemed he might be closing on me so I hailed him. Luckily I'd noted his name earlier, (Northern Lights), anyway, he said I was making a "fine" target. Made me think the things must work.

Sorry, but I don't think you can assume that the fineness of the target strength reported was due only to the reflector.

 

[Calif. Ted]

I've always wondered why a B1 bomber didn't look more like a sailboat if we're totally invisible to radar.

 

[Skipper]

I've always wondered why a B1 bomber didn't look more like a sailboat if we're totally invisible to radar.

It does.