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When to rebuild rudder hinge? H 23.5

Discussion in 'Smaller Boats' started by CrispyCringle, Dec 26, 2018. Add this thread to a FAQ

  1. CrispyCringle

    CrispyCringle

    Joined Sep 30, 2016
    167 posts, 64 likes
    Hunter 23.5
    US Patoka
    I thinking about rebuilding the rudder hinge of my 23.5. However, before plunking down $130+ for new gudgeons and other stuff that comes up, Id like to have an idea how much play in the hinge is normal. Right now, it looks like there is well over 1/16" play in the holes for the hinge pins. In rough water I can feel the rudder shift slightly left and right while underway. Like loose steering. I drive sports cars, so I like a nice tight steering feel. But I dont know whats normal in this boat. Can anyone relate how much play in their rudder hinge? My son says his Hobbie has zero play. But I guess Im wondering if they just come loose from factory, or if they are ovaled out from leaving the rudder down in a slip all the time (I dont do that, but have only owned her for a few years).
     


  2. Rick Macdonald

    Rick Macdonald

    Joined Jun 2, 2004
    577 posts, 31 likes
    Hunter 23.5
    CA Calgary, Canada
    The rudder on my 1995 is tight but it's been on a lake for most of its life.
     


  3. Ted

    Ted

    Joined Jan 26, 2005
    1,069 posts, 176 likes
    C&C 110
    US Bay Shore, Long Island, NY
    You want as little play as possible. 1/6" of clearance is very sloppy. Depending on the design of your existing gudgeons, you might be able to install a sleeve or bushing. If your pintles aren't worn, this would be an inexpensive way to rebuild without buying new parts. You also could do an epoxy pour in place bushing using graphite mixed with epoxy to make a custom fit, low friction bushing. The pintle would have to be smooth with no deep scratches for this to work. You must use a release agent on the pintle to make sure the parts can be separated once the epoxy cured. I did a procedure similar to this for worn rudder bushings on a previous boat with great results.
     


    Last edited: Dec 26, 2018
  4. Crazy Dave Condon

    Crazy Dave Condon

    Joined Jun 8, 2004
    7,008 posts, 704 likes
    -na -NA
    US Anywhere USA
    Crispy

    Take a few photos of the gudgon and pintel and the rudder where pintels are attached. Then advise if there are any spacers in the rudder bolt that holds the rudder to the rudder bracket as they would be large white Delrin. I need to know more before suggesting.
     


  5. CrispyCringle

    CrispyCringle

    Joined Sep 30, 2016
    167 posts, 64 likes
    Hunter 23.5
    US Patoka
    I think I found where the play is happening. Took the rudder assembly off today and it looks like the hinge pins are pretty toasty. The gudgeons look fine, the space for between the pin and gudgeons looks fine, as well as the metal to metal between the pins and the transom mounts. So I guess Im getting new pins and the red rubber that holds the rudder in place. Its very dry cracked and brittle. I have a sheet of teflon that I can make some spacers
    from if needed.

    rudder pin.jpg
     


  6. Rick Webb

    Rick Webb

    Joined Jun 2, 2004
    2,757 posts, 146 likes
    Hunter 23.5
    US Fort Walton Yacht Club, Florida
    If your pin is long enough just add a washer to move the pin up a bit to take out the added slop.
     


    Crazy Dave Condon likes this.
  7. CrispyCringle

    CrispyCringle

    Joined Sep 30, 2016
    167 posts, 64 likes
    Hunter 23.5
    US Patoka
    Brilliant! Im pretty sure there is plenty of room to do just that.
     


  8. Crazy Dave Condon

    Crazy Dave Condon

    Joined Jun 8, 2004
    7,008 posts, 704 likes
    -na -NA
    US Anywhere USA
    Keep us posted
     


  9. bigchief

    bigchief

    Joined May 22, 2013
    5 posts, 0 likes
    Hunter 23.5
    US Lake Calhoun
    I'd suggest checking for slop where the tiller is bolted to the rudder head. The tiller thru holes often oval out causing a lot of slop.
     


  10. CrispyCringle

    CrispyCringle

    Joined Sep 30, 2016
    167 posts, 64 likes
    Hunter 23.5
    US Patoka
    Good idea. Ill be taking the whole thing apart to replace the rubber that holds the rudder in place. Ill check it then.

    Also, I need to touch up the tip of the rudder from some bottom contact. Im not sure what to patch it with. Ill post pics later. I think Im going to sand it down and repaint the whole rudder.
     


  11. CrispyCringle

    CrispyCringle

    Joined Sep 30, 2016
    167 posts, 64 likes
    Hunter 23.5
    US Patoka
    Additional questions on this winter project. Two areas needing addressed. 1) The tip of the rudder has some bottom damage, as well as a ding on the trailing edge. Not sure what to use to fill it. Im familiar with auto body repairs, but not fiberglass boat repairs. 2) If you look at the pics of the metal frame, you can see some warping that has taken place. Im not sure if Im missing some spacers or what. I can probably straighten it. But Im wondering if there are spacer washers between the metal and the tiller. Functionally, it works fine. The rudder will be sanded down and painted in the end. Also, it looks like the tightening nut has been cranked too tight at some point in the past and bent the frame in somewhat. 3) What should I paint it with if I sand down to original gel coat or fiberglass?

    I guess I should have taken more pics for those not super familiar with this particular boat. Can later if need be.

    IMG_6991.jpg IMG_6994.jpg IMG_6992.jpg IMG_6995.jpg
    View attachment 159792 View attachment 159792 View attachment 159793 View attachment 159792 View attachment 159793
     


  12. Crazy Dave Condon

    Crazy Dave Condon

    Joined Jun 8, 2004
    7,008 posts, 704 likes
    -na -NA
    US Anywhere USA
    Stand the rudder up to allow any moisture or water inside to come out. Do this in a dry place inside for a while.

    I looked at manual but need some help refreshing my memory as I see something wrong with the rudder housing (top). Would others take some photos for me and post as I am looking at the tightening wing nut on top as I think it was added and should not be there

    @CrispyCringle
    Would you willing to talk with me?
     


  13. CrispyCringle

    CrispyCringle

    Joined Sep 30, 2016
    167 posts, 64 likes
    Hunter 23.5
    US Patoka
    Upon further research, I appear to be missing the rudder spacers at the top of the assembly (part #800523). Image from the Hunter parts store.

    Screen Shot 2019-01-03 at 8.04.23 AM.png
     


  14. CrispyCringle

    CrispyCringle

    Joined Sep 30, 2016
    167 posts, 64 likes
    Hunter 23.5
    US Patoka
    Here is a pic of the whole assembly, with the rudder in the Up/Stowed position. Areas in RED are the locations of the dents a scrapes. It looks hideous. Can wait to get it all prettied up.

    Any suggestions on what to fill it in with? Also, what glue to attach the red rubber to the metal frame?

    IMG_6996_2.jpg
     


  15. isaksp00

    isaksp00

    Joined Apr 27, 2010
    1,012 posts, 80 likes
    Hunter 23
    US Lake Wallenpaupack
    I had gouges like that on my H23 rudder when I bought it. I bought the West System epoxy, and their metered pumps, and both the fairing and structural thickeners. I used the structural thickener for the deeper gouges, with some of the softer fairing thickener to round off the surface. You may need to use some fiberglass cloth if your gouges are big enough. The one on the bottom tip might benefit from that, by grinding out some of the foam and "wrapping" with a layer of cloth designed to help keep the side skins from separating, topped with a peanut butter consistency thickened resin.
    I have tried both the 2 part barrier coat and a one part paint and did not like the results. I think a proper gelcoat with wet sanding is likely the way to get it looking nice, but I don't yet have experience with that.
     


  16. Rick Webb

    Rick Webb

    Joined Jun 2, 2004
    2,757 posts, 146 likes
    Hunter 23.5
    US Fort Walton Yacht Club, Florida
    Epoxy with thickener, sand to shape and a spray can of white Krylon will get you going
     


  17. Crazy Dave Condon

    Crazy Dave Condon

    Joined Jun 8, 2004
    7,008 posts, 704 likes
    -na -NA
    US Anywhere USA
    @Rick Webb and @isaksp00

    Ok you wascals, thank you very much for responding. Both of you are correct. The first question is the water inside the rudder and if there is any, it will need to be positioned in the up position for the water to drain. The key to this you have two halves married together with marine putty which the bottom is pretty well beaten up. I would Dremel out the affected part inside so you could get back to a clean and unaffected or undamaged area. At that point I would determine what direction to go but glassing in the bottom is going to be recommended. Filler of two part epoxy is good but the damages are too deep just to epoxy only.

    I would suggest removal of the anti fouling paint by sanding only. Leave the gel coat alone. In a sense it is an oil based paint and repainting back with gel coat is a pain in the butt. I would do what Rick suggested using the Krylon plastic paint that will do just fine. I forgot the number of that white paint is so if anyone knows, please post it here.

    Crispy, please go slow on the removal. I have sent you my phone number which is highly secret. Har Har. I ask that it not be given out as I do the same with all of you. Please do that only by private message to protect your contact info. I will talk with you before you start. The bolt on the back of the rudder head generally I think had a metal spacer tube I think with a plastic pipe over it to prevent the back side of the rudder when in the up position. Not sure if that caused that damage.
     


  18. CrispyCringle

    CrispyCringle

    Joined Sep 30, 2016
    167 posts, 64 likes
    Hunter 23.5
    US Patoka
    Well, Ive made some progress. The rudder assembly is all taken apart. Parts ordered. I am apparently missing all the spacers in the rudder head. Hence the metal distortion. Ill be working on that soon and breaking out some body work tools and hammers. The red rubber gasket was completely worn out where the rudder blade swings up and down for stowage. Ive been hunting for the stainless steel hardware. So far, Ive been to three hardware stores and a marine store with really good fastener selections. Well, not good enough. Finally got what I needed. Ill post pics later.
     


    Crazy Dave Condon likes this.
  19. isaksp00

    isaksp00

    Joined Apr 27, 2010
    1,012 posts, 80 likes
    Hunter 23
    US Lake Wallenpaupack
    I had some distortion of the aluminum at the top of the rudder head, like yours but maybe a bit less. I threaded nuts and fender washers positioned on the hinge bolt with both nuts inside the head, then used open end wrenches to turn one nut to "squeeze" the sides back outward.
     


    Crazy Dave Condon likes this.