What is the future of the Catalina 22?

Jan 1, 2006
7,074
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
I love me some Seascape. The local one hasn't found the podium yet but they will once they drop the number of crew.
I spent Easter with my step son in law and he illuminated for me the problem with the small sailboat market. And, it is Waverunners. His generation and his kid's generation are only interested in speed. His goes 64 mph - not 63 or 65 - but 64 mph and it's mph not kts. And he has his eye on one that goes 90. All the guys he rides with get brand new skis and immediately drop thousands on them to modify them to go faster. They're in for 25 to 30 K for the speed. They network by cell phone and one message about going out draws 25 to 30 co-riders. I think in great measure the utes are drawn to immediate gratification and have little interest in the art of sailing. That is the market. A 10' 600 lb sled with 240 horsepower. F'in Smokers! They simply don't have the capacity to understand why someone would buy something to go out on the water with something that only goes 8 kts.
 
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Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
I love me some Seascape. The local one hasn't found the podium yet but they will once they drop the number of crew.
I spent Easter with my step son in law and he illuminated for me the problem with the small sailboat market. And, it is Waverunners. His generation and his kid's generation are only interested in speed. His goes 64 mph - not 63 or 65 - but 64 mph and it's mph not kts. And he has his eye on one that goes 90. All the guys he rides with get brand new skis and immediately drop thousands on them to modify them to go faster. They're in for 25 to 30 K for the speed. They network by cell phone and one message about going out draws 25 to 30 co-riders. I think in great measure the utes are drawn to immediate gratification and have little interest in the art of sailing. That is the market. A 10' 600 lb sled with 240 horsepower. F'in Smokers! They simply don't have the capacity to understand why someone would buy something to go out on the water with something that only goes 8 kts.
Lot of truth to that. Twist the wrist and go. Don't want to LEARN anything. Takes a special breed of cat to want to sail these-days.
 
Apr 21, 2015
127
Catalina 22 Sport #15582 Indianapolis
Catalina 22 is still in production as the Catalina 22 Sport. Last hull number I tracked was #15782 from Fall 2017. Catalina 22 has been in continuous production since 1969...this is 49 years, not 39 years. The Sport and the Capri 22 share a similar design from the deck up and also interior...so the C22 has been updated since 2004 when the Catalina 22 Sport was introduced.

I expect that Catalina Yachts will continue to produce the Catalina 22 Sport and Capri 22 for many more years as designing and all the preparation work for building a new boat design is very costly. Unless Catalina Yachts expects to see increased demand in 22-25 foot market, I don't expect we will see a replacement. If they do come out with a new model, and retire the C22 Sport and Capri 22, I would expect the new boat to be something like the Catalina 235 Sport...something in-between the 22 and 25 foot range, but not large enough to take marketshare from the Catalina 275 Sport.

The quality of production and workmanship of the Catalina 22 Sport, since production moved to Largo, FL, is much, much better than it was compared to all the earlier Catalina 22 models.

Most people that are buying the Catalina 22 Sport are buying it for day-sailing, not for racing. The Sport has a longer cockpit, longer than most 25-26 foot boats, so more space where it matters most.

The fiberglass encased swing keel is awesome...I have a 2006 Sport and, after 12 seasons, have zero issues with rust or other maintenance concerns. Simply replace the keel cable and keel bolts every few years. The fiberglass encased swing keel is also a little bit wider than the original C22 model, which helps generate better lift, but also creates a little more drag when going downwind.
 
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Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Most people that are buying the Catalina 22 Sport are buying it for day-sailing, not for racing. The Sport has a longer cockpit, longer than most 25-26 foot boats, so more space where it matters most.
Nice post. This is interesting but I suppose predictable. Why is the 22 Sport more popular than the more modern Capri 22 with the same sized cockpit? Is the the ease of trailing with the swing keel? How do the cost compare?
 
Aug 22, 2017
1,609
Hunter 26.5 West Palm Beach
...The American auto industry responded with statements about a loss of market share that, "Americans loves big cars." and "these small cars are just a fad." Today, it is my understanding, that Toyota's market share is the biggest slice of the American market....
I use my two 17' boats more often than any others I own. They are not my largest.
 
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Apr 21, 2015
127
Catalina 22 Sport #15582 Indianapolis
Nice post. This is interesting but I suppose predictable. Why is the 22 Sport more popular than the more modern Capri 22 with the same sized cockpit? Is the the ease of trailing with the swing keel? How do the cost compare?
Catalina 22 Sport and Capri 22 price tags are within a few hundred bucks of each other.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
I use my two 17' boats more often than any others I own. They are not my largest.
Sure. But remember that any decent size data sample will have outliers.

Your tag line mentions only the 17s. What is the other boat, and what is the circumstance that make you sail the 17s more?
 

Bosman

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Oct 24, 2010
346
Solina 27 Wabamun, Alberta
They've retired the name but the market for a contemporary Buick Skylark is still there.
This is off-topic....but the Buick pictured on the photo is not even an American vehicle. The vehicle on the photo is rebadged 2010 Opel / Vauxhall Insignia OPC.
 
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Oct 19, 2017
7,746
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
In light of what has been said about market trends in America, as one of the largest, if not the largest market for boats like the C22. Catalina is going to have to distinguish itself with a well appointed, good-looking, midrange overnighter that is simple to rig, easy to sail and comfortable to live aboard for a long weekend. The new C22 will have to get a beginner/intermediate sailor to fun local locations like Catalina Island, Block Islands, even Bimini and market themselves as a great all around, environmentally conscientious, affordable performance weekend trailersailer that will get the family of 4.46 people wherever they want to go for the weekend, in style and true maritime tradition.
They should sell barebones boats that mount small outboard's to higher end luxury models with inboard engines and automated mast raising and sail trimming. They should be nearly indistinguishable so the economy models are not a turn off because of the apparent lower status.
As long as there are people who want to get into sailing, but can't afford the $40K boat, there will be a market for C22s that can be had for < $20K.
Can Catalina build a new C22 and make a profit at that price point? I think so, but of course I don't know. This could represent a market that is open for a competitor to step in.
Boats are not like cars, in that, you are going to buy a car, spending more on a luxury car is easier to justify, but if you can't afford that, you are still going to buy a car. If you can't afford the boat, you won't buy a boat.

- Will (Dragonfly)
 
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Bosman

.
Oct 24, 2010
346
Solina 27 Wabamun, Alberta
They should sell barebones boats that mount small outboard's to higher end luxury models with inboard engines and automated mast raising and sail trimming. They should be nearly indistinguishable so the economy models are not a turn off because of the apparent lower status.
That could work. If Catalina were to sell just a shell with all the crucial components pre-attached (ballast, keel, rudder), with the remaining components to be attached/completed by the end user, this would drive the price way down. One drawback, is that such vessel could not have the official Catalina hull number, but be rather sold and registered as a "kit-boat", something similar to "kit-car" approach.
 
Jun 9, 2008
1,771
- -- -Bayfield
It seems that sailing is reverting back to the day where it is becoming a rich man's sport again. Back in '69 Everette Pearson came up with the Triton 28 which introduced an affordable fiberglass production boat for the masses and it was hugely popular. That sort of helped change the course to make sailing more affordable and it parlayed into other manufacturers following suit and so fiberglass technology grew. Before that, the average citizen could not afford a boat, unless it was a day sailor and before then, they were made of wood. Some years ago, when I talked to Frank Butler, he said his major goal was to keep his cost of the then Catalina 22 down to $10,000. He wanted to keep it affordable and he did. One of the ways he did that was instead of buying OEM products from the normal suppliers, he made his own turnbuckles, spars, etc. etc. keeping it in house and that helped keep the cost down. Also back when production sailboat flourished, one of the biggest and most successful companies of the time was O'Day. They recognized brand recognition and built starter boats like the O'Day 19, 22, 23, etc. and really had a stepping stone all the way into the 40 foot range and it worked. Many of their customers walked up the O'Day ladder as their incomes and interest grew. Hunter has enjoyed the same brand recognition, as have J/Boats and a number of other brands, like Morgan Yachts (way back) but O'Day really was sort of a pioneer in that area. It is true that today, a manufacturer can make a lot more money off of a larger boat and so smaller boats are not so profitable, unless you can sell a ton of them. J/Boats is selling lots of J/70's which appeal to J/Boat owners for sure (brand recognition), but J/Boats also thrives on the one-design racing program, which aids in their success. As mentioned above, not everyone wants to race. A great number of the sailing population wants to cruise, and that is what the Catalina 22 offered. To help keep up with the market, they made changes to the original design, such as a deck remodel, different keel selections, but they kept the original sail plan and hull to comply with all the Catalina 22's that were also used in club racing. It was hardly sticking to rigid one design racing rules, but then if someone wanted to go feet first into one design racing, they would be better off with a J/Boat or another brand specifically designed for one-design and keeping within the stringent rules that govern them. I can see some cruisers cringing at the thought, but if you wanted to get into racing, one-design eliminates the handicap problem of fairness or lack of it. I digress. Catalina did come up with some newer designs, which seems like the thing to do if you want to continue to satisfy your customers. The Capri 22 was designed to compete with the J/22, but never enjoyed the same success. With some of their slightly larger models, they stopped making the Catalina 25 which was pretty popular (O'Day had their 25-footer as well) and called it a 250. It also seems that sailors are getting lazier, or perhaps it is the manufacturer that is pushing that on folks and probably for the good of most. When I first got into sailing, back when the earth cooled, I started on a 19-foot day sailor, racing one-design and then gradually moved up into racer cruisers (because I wanted to sleep on my boat too with some degree of comfort). My sailing scope has usually included a sailboat that has performance potentional, but that has a lot to do with where I sailed. When you are on an inland lake, cruising very far isn't in the game, but club racing does add an element of fun when you are somewhat confined, so my boats could be raced and slept on. I have done a lot of Great Lake and ocean sailing as well and have been on many boats designed mostly for comfort rather than performance. Someone above mentioned large multihulls as a way to go as that seems to be the charter trend. Well, most people aren't into chartering their own boats, but for comfort - especially with a number of friends, a big cat is pretty cool and fun. They are big, so many marinas aren't keen on accepting them into a dock because they take up too much room. But, the charter thing is different. Back in the day, companies like Morgan Yachts, created the Out Island design especially for the charter trade. They were huge, comfortable and you had to turn the engine on to tack them. There were others like that as well. Getting back into the day, great companies like Islander, Pearson, Mirage, C&C - the list is a long one - cranked out decent boats that were affordable for the most part. Then the recession where double digit interest rates and long lines at the gas station became a reality. Fiberglass, a petroleum product raised the prices of boat manufacturing and literally priced boats out of the market in tandem with the recession. After recovery, boat manufactures that survived (and many didn't) had to figure out how to build boats for less money and so they cheapened up their production methods. Boats quite simply weren't built as well and they cut corners where ever they could to keep the price down. Today manufacturers are learning how to build stronger and lighter boats better than ever before (but there are still some cheaper ones out there), but across the board, it ain't so affordable anymore. It's a shame, because it is getting harder and harder to get a start in any kind of boating. The best buys are on the used market and there are a ton of wonderful used boats at a fraction of the price. There are also a number of good used boats that are very cheap (like a Pearson 26 which can be picked up for a few thousand dollars), but the price of a slip to put it is more than the boat. So, those older boats are starting to head for the dumps unfortunately. When I was a younger man, trailering a boat, launching, rigging, stepping the mast and pulling it out of the water wasn't daunting to me at all. Now it is more like work and it is much more convenient to walk down the dock, take off the dock lines and head out for a day of sailing. Also, when I was younger, copious amounts of stuff was very attractive. Sailboats were cool because you could buy all the stuff for them and rig them to the hilt. Tons of sails for every breath of wind. Several halyards, winches, spinnakers and bloopers, reaching struts (half of you probably don't know what a reaching strut is), internalize things and tree up the mechanical advantage (MA). Today, builders are making everything easy. No need for difficult or complex systems. The likes of Garry Hoyt and others spent their lives simplifying sailing. In some ways its a part of dumbing up America as they are doing with cars. But, that is a factor that gets people into the sport and that is A-OK. I guess when it comes to a trailerable boat that is between 20 and 25 feet, Precision Boat Works does a great job with their 21 and 23 footers. They are more modern that the Catalina 22 and have a lot to offer. That is not to say they are the only ones, but it seems to me, that is a great candidate for the trailerable sailor groups. You know, back in the day, there was a West Coast sailboat trailerable organization designed to bring trailerable sailors together anywhere in the country. I think it was called NASA (North American Sailing Association - or something like that - I can look it up). It was devised by builders like Balboa, Coastal Recreation, Laguna Yachts, etc. and had a good run. No reason something like that couldn't get off the ground again and that would put a charge in the small boat market. Groups could trailer at different times of the year to the left or right coast, Florida, Texas, the Great Lakes, etc. and enjoy their rendevouz'. Time to get back to work. Bye.
 

JRT

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Feb 14, 2017
2,048
Catalina 310 211 Lake Guntersville, AL
For a new sailor approaching my second season I have a few thoughts. To me it is $70k, which isn't an unreasonable price for a new Seascape and I could very well swing it if that was the priority, there are just too many great options other choices out there. I just can't sell fast and sailboat to the family in the same sentence. So $70k better be pretty nice because there is a 2002 Beneteau 331 a few hours away in Alabama that would meet our family requirements that if this was a year from today would probably be coming to our lake this season.
 

Bosman

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Oct 24, 2010
346
Solina 27 Wabamun, Alberta
It seems that sailing is reverting back to the day where it is becoming a rich man's sport again.
In my opinion boating was, is and will be a luxury activity. I do not believe it is an income issue, as there are plenty of youngsters were I live playing on expensive speedboats in the range of 24-26ft. If new sailboats looked as appealing as new powerboats, we would see many more young sailors around - the younger generation is not interested in classical lines, they want cool, shiny with significant amount of the bling factor. This is very much reflected in any major boat show on the planet, where the sailing vessels are very much visible minority. But this is my opinion only. Cool boats sell fast™
 
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Grotto

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Feb 18, 2018
273
Catalina 22 Wilmington
I think Catalina has already done this. The new c22 is a one design race boat / weekender. There are always need for new hulls in one design racing, not hundreds but enough to produce the line. The new pocket cruisers are targeted at the younger buyer who can afford the boat, but not necessarily the slip fee along with the boat. The younger generation is looking for flexible designs that work for multiple uses trailerable throw in paddle boards etc. Just like our venerable 22 added the word yacht to middle class americans life. The new designs are laser focused on the people that will buy new small boats. So yes I think our boat will be out there produced for a long time to come. Might not Look the same topside same hull though
 
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Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
I think Catalina has already done this. The new c22 is a one design race boat / weekender. There are always need for new hulls in one design racing, not hundreds but enough to produce the line. So yes I think our boat will be out there produced for a long time to come. Might not Look the same topside same hull though
While I agree the 'sport' model is designed to keep a supply of new hulls available for OD racing, the notion of One Design limits the ability to make wholesale modification to the deck. Or any other part of the boat for that matter. Do that, changing the deck configuration and/or weight, and you have a new boat. This was done to the j/24, with a whole new sport-boat style deck. The new boat (on a j24 hull) is called the IC24.
 
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Oct 19, 2017
7,746
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
@Barnacle Bill, that was an outstanding post.
So, with that, why would the SBO community or any sailing community, outside of the boat manufactures, be concerned that interest in sailing is flagging? I've asked this question before. I participate in discussions like this one because they are an interesting intellectual exercise and I always learn something, not because I'm really concerned about the future of sailing. I sail, now that I have a new used boat that satisfies my criteria, that is enough for me. There are, as has been often pointed out, a large number of affordable used boats on the market. The sailing boom of earlier days has left use that legacy. If you are one who doesn't shy away from work and like the independence that type of sailing is, you will find no shortage of opportunities to get into sailing. If you would rather buy it done, buy it new and just get on your boat and go, forget how to fix what may break and rely on a gps, proximity warning radar, an epirb, satellite data connections, and curtious and attentive fellow sailors to take care of you, that is an entirely different population than the sailors I grew up knowing.
I can think of several successful models that might work to promote sailing in the future generation, but who do we want taking up our marina, mooring and ocean space along side us?

- Will (Dragonfly)
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
@Barnacle Bill, that was an outstanding post.
So, with that, why would the SBO community or any sailing community, outside of the boat manufactures, be concerned that interest in sailing is flagging? I've asked this question before. I participate in discussions like this one because they are an interesting intellectual exercise and I always learn something, not because I'm really concerned about the future of sailing. I sail, now that I have a new used boat that satisfies my criteria, that is enough for me. There are, as has been often pointed out, a large number of affordable used boats on the market. The sailing boom of earlier days has left use that legacy. If you are one who doesn't shy away from work and like the independence that type of sailing is, you will find no shortage of opportunities to get into sailing. If you would rather buy it done, buy it new and just get on your boat and go, forget how to fix what may break and rely on a gps, proximity warning radar, an epirb, satellite data connections, and curtious and attentive fellow sailors to take care of you, that is an entirely different population than the sailors I grew up knowing.
I can think of several successful models that might work to promote sailing in the future generation, but who do we want taking up our marina, mooring and ocean space along side us?

- Will (Dragonfly)
Bill cares because he sells boats. In fact, he sold me a Catalina 22 about a thousand years ago.
 
Oct 19, 2017
7,746
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
If there was a magic formula to make them cheaper, smarter people than you and I would have done so.
Jackdaw, you seem like a very very smart person. I don't know about you, but there are not a lot of people smarter that I am. One of them just died so, even less now. ; )

-Will (Dragonfly)
 
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Mar 20, 2015
3,095
C&C 30 Mk1 Winnipeg
So, with that, why would the SBO community or any sailing community, outside of the boat manufactures, be concerned that interest in sailing is flagging?
On selfish level I hope interest in many outdoor activities shrinks. That way I can find empty anchorages/hiking trails/beaches/campsites and cheap sailboats.
Heck, I am conflicted when giving people details about great trips I have taken. Popularity can/will crush the life out of things I enjoy.

Of course the flipside is, a lack of sailors will have an effect on availability of parts/supplies. Not many people can completely fab their own components from scratch. Not to mention a bunch of other possible fallout.
 
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