Just bumming around today and searching the web. I'm interested in what the advantages are of a cutter rigged boat. What about the disadvantages? I sail the middle Chesapeake but always have the plan to go and do some coastal sailing. Just wondering out loud. Thanks, Joe Mullee
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The two disadvantages that I can think of are
you have to make allowances for tacking a genoa around the staysail-stay and you have to mess with running backstays. By the same token the extra rigging gives more support to the mast, and the divided fore-triangle is safer when reducing sail. Additionally the staysail can be equipped with a self tacking boom or club to make sail handling easier. The advantages are generally more evident on larger boats in which the genoas get pretty big and unmanageable short handed. Have fun Joe S
you have to make allowances for tacking a genoa around the staysail-stay and you have to mess with running backstays. By the same token the extra rigging gives more support to the mast, and the divided fore-triangle is safer when reducing sail. Additionally the staysail can be equipped with a self tacking boom or club to make sail handling easier. The advantages are generally more evident on larger boats in which the genoas get pretty big and unmanageable short handed. Have fun Joe S
Depends on the boat
Mine has no running backstays and a detachable solent stay for the Staysail. It is quite the pain to tack the Genny with the solent stay in place. I also need a Yankee for flying twin headsails upwind as the Genny gets sucked into the back of the Staysail. I do like the rig for it's versatility though.
Mine has no running backstays and a detachable solent stay for the Staysail. It is quite the pain to tack the Genny with the solent stay in place. I also need a Yankee for flying twin headsails upwind as the Genny gets sucked into the back of the Staysail. I do like the rig for it's versatility though.
I think the rig of my next boat will be similar to
the B&R rig; a small non-overlapping jib and big roachy full-batten main. My current boat, a Bene OC400, is a masthead sloop with a 155 genny and that sail is a PITA to tack, (or rather, to crank in going upwind) on a weather leg. There's something to be said for just turning the wheel to tack.
the B&R rig; a small non-overlapping jib and big roachy full-batten main. My current boat, a Bene OC400, is a masthead sloop with a 155 genny and that sail is a PITA to tack, (or rather, to crank in going upwind) on a weather leg. There's something to be said for just turning the wheel to tack.
I have a 145 on mine and found the secret
to tacking a big headsail is to let it backwind a bit before running free and with only two wraps on the new windward winch (none in the ST cog) pull like hell as it comes across. Typically, ya only have two or three cranks left to do for trim if ya time it right. Once you've pulled over all you can get, you then throw the other two wraps and go up the ramp on the winch. Keep the handle off until ya need it.
to tacking a big headsail is to let it backwind a bit before running free and with only two wraps on the new windward winch (none in the ST cog) pull like hell as it comes across. Typically, ya only have two or three cranks left to do for trim if ya time it right. Once you've pulled over all you can get, you then throw the other two wraps and go up the ramp on the winch. Keep the handle off until ya need it.
Pros and Cons of Cutter
I sail a Bob Perry design cutter. Advantages: 1. Flexibility of sail plan to meet varying wind conditions. 2. Ability to reef 'back to front'.... a (true cutter with the mast at 50% LOD) will sail adequately on Genoa only ........ and still have a balanced helm ---- the combined CE on a cutter is in front of the mast and usually 'just aft' of the center/centroid of the staysail. 3. Sail plan optimized for beam to broad reaching --- ie.: ' trade wind sailing'. Cutters are usually 'masthead' rig configurations. 4. Use of intermediate stays reduce need for running backstays. 5. Reduction of turbulance at mast by close setting of staysail (on beat), which greatly increases stable flow over mainsail which increases efficiency of genoa. 6. Self tacking staysail, if clubfooted. Disadvantages: 1. an incredibly difficult rig to 'tune' properly, especially if boat has bobstay/bowsprit. 1a. Requires either running backstays or large-stroke backstay adjuster - for pointing ability and to compensate/adjust the extra long headstay (headstay sag). 1b. Bery difficult to 'balance' the tensions in the headstay/forestay with a single backstay for good headstay tension (headstay sag). Variable headstay sag due to forestay unloading into the headstay (and vice versa) ... will drive you nuts iw/r to sail shaping. 2. Tacking a large genoa through between headstay and forestay .... but there are 'tricks' to do this such as tricing line or backwinding the genoa over a taught staysail. 3. VERY difficult to get all sails interacting on an aerodynamic basis. 4. Needs running backstays (if no intermediates) 5. Uses VERY large Genoas for light air sailing. 6. Staysail 'under' a genoa ineffective in winds less than 6-8 kts. - adverse aero 'boootstraping'. If genoa 'overlaps' staysail, then decrease of aero effects. 7. Narrow sheeting angles (from horizontal centerline) for staysail .... causes head portion to easily become over twisted by 'lifting' clew. (Clubfoot / Hoyt boom reduces clew from 'skying'.) Most cutter rigs without clubfoot will usually have fluttering head leeches and overtrimmed foot of staysail --- only the center panels of staysail will be 'working' in other than 'pointing' sets. The above is for a TRUE cutter with mast at ~40-50% of LOD ........... not a double headed sloop rig with mast at ~30% LOD .... such as Island Packets, etc. as double headed sloops dont have adequate sized (SA) staysails!!!!!! What defines a boat as a cutter is the MAST POSITION (~50%), not how many 'foresails' it carries.
I sail a Bob Perry design cutter. Advantages: 1. Flexibility of sail plan to meet varying wind conditions. 2. Ability to reef 'back to front'.... a (true cutter with the mast at 50% LOD) will sail adequately on Genoa only ........ and still have a balanced helm ---- the combined CE on a cutter is in front of the mast and usually 'just aft' of the center/centroid of the staysail. 3. Sail plan optimized for beam to broad reaching --- ie.: ' trade wind sailing'. Cutters are usually 'masthead' rig configurations. 4. Use of intermediate stays reduce need for running backstays. 5. Reduction of turbulance at mast by close setting of staysail (on beat), which greatly increases stable flow over mainsail which increases efficiency of genoa. 6. Self tacking staysail, if clubfooted. Disadvantages: 1. an incredibly difficult rig to 'tune' properly, especially if boat has bobstay/bowsprit. 1a. Requires either running backstays or large-stroke backstay adjuster - for pointing ability and to compensate/adjust the extra long headstay (headstay sag). 1b. Bery difficult to 'balance' the tensions in the headstay/forestay with a single backstay for good headstay tension (headstay sag). Variable headstay sag due to forestay unloading into the headstay (and vice versa) ... will drive you nuts iw/r to sail shaping. 2. Tacking a large genoa through between headstay and forestay .... but there are 'tricks' to do this such as tricing line or backwinding the genoa over a taught staysail. 3. VERY difficult to get all sails interacting on an aerodynamic basis. 4. Needs running backstays (if no intermediates) 5. Uses VERY large Genoas for light air sailing. 6. Staysail 'under' a genoa ineffective in winds less than 6-8 kts. - adverse aero 'boootstraping'. If genoa 'overlaps' staysail, then decrease of aero effects. 7. Narrow sheeting angles (from horizontal centerline) for staysail .... causes head portion to easily become over twisted by 'lifting' clew. (Clubfoot / Hoyt boom reduces clew from 'skying'.) Most cutter rigs without clubfoot will usually have fluttering head leeches and overtrimmed foot of staysail --- only the center panels of staysail will be 'working' in other than 'pointing' sets. The above is for a TRUE cutter with mast at ~40-50% of LOD ........... not a double headed sloop rig with mast at ~30% LOD .... such as Island Packets, etc. as double headed sloops dont have adequate sized (SA) staysails!!!!!! What defines a boat as a cutter is the MAST POSITION (~50%), not how many 'foresails' it carries.
Do some research
Not all is what it appears to be. Some rigs look like a cutter, but are really what is known as a double head-stayed rig. These particular rigs are not meant to be used with both head sails at the same time. The inner stay is meant to be used alone when weather gets bad enough to reduce sail. The inner headsail moves the forces slightly further back and balances the boat better. With a true cutter rig, the inner head sail (staysail) is used alone for the same reason, but under normal sailing comnditions, both the jib and the staysail are flown at the same time. In addition to better balancing options with more sails, the individual headsails are smaller than the jib/ genny on a sloop and are therefore easier to handle. Generally speaking, the more sails you have, the more options you have. I personally am a big fan of cutter rigs and ketch rigs if you intend to go offshore or if you want to be more comfortable in rough weather. Be aware that there were some really poorly designed cutters and ketch rigged boats. To the point that the inner stays are generally removed by the owners on the cutters and the mizzen masts were removed on the ketch's. But if you get a well designed cutter or ketch, you will love it. Tony B
Not all is what it appears to be. Some rigs look like a cutter, but are really what is known as a double head-stayed rig. These particular rigs are not meant to be used with both head sails at the same time. The inner stay is meant to be used alone when weather gets bad enough to reduce sail. The inner headsail moves the forces slightly further back and balances the boat better. With a true cutter rig, the inner head sail (staysail) is used alone for the same reason, but under normal sailing comnditions, both the jib and the staysail are flown at the same time. In addition to better balancing options with more sails, the individual headsails are smaller than the jib/ genny on a sloop and are therefore easier to handle. Generally speaking, the more sails you have, the more options you have. I personally am a big fan of cutter rigs and ketch rigs if you intend to go offshore or if you want to be more comfortable in rough weather. Be aware that there were some really poorly designed cutters and ketch rigged boats. To the point that the inner stays are generally removed by the owners on the cutters and the mizzen masts were removed on the ketch's. But if you get a well designed cutter or ketch, you will love it. Tony B
I reckon Oh Joy would be classified as a double headsail Yawl then.
The mast is at about 40-45% LOA, she has a bowsprit and detachable solent stay. She also has a single HUGE backstay with lot's of adjustment. Originally she was a single headsail yawl with a 12' J. Now she has a 14'4" J for the Genny. It makes for a much faster boat with 840 sq ft of SA instead of 600 sq ft. Better helm balance with the Mizzen up too.
The mast is at about 40-45% LOA, she has a bowsprit and detachable solent stay. She also has a single HUGE backstay with lot's of adjustment. Originally she was a single headsail yawl with a 12' J. Now she has a 14'4" J for the Genny. It makes for a much faster boat with 840 sq ft of SA instead of 600 sq ft. Better helm balance with the Mizzen up too.
116% Jib
Our new Beneteau 323 has a non-overlapping 116% Genoa. Its very easy to handle, much better than the 135% that we used to have on our old Catalina 30. I barely have to use the winch in moderate conditions. Maybe one or two effortless cranks will do the job in most low to medium wind conditions.
Our new Beneteau 323 has a non-overlapping 116% Genoa. Its very easy to handle, much better than the 135% that we used to have on our old Catalina 30. I barely have to use the winch in moderate conditions. Maybe one or two effortless cranks will do the job in most low to medium wind conditions.
Cutter vs. Double headstay
One of the key items in a successful cutter is that with both head sails up at the same time, the boat speed increases. If no increase in speed, it is a poorly designed cutter. At this point, we are where the double headstayed rig comes into play. This is the 'use one sail or the other' kinda thing. In light air, use the big Genny. In rough weather, use the staysail. In Charlies case, if it works well, whats in a name? Tony B
One of the key items in a successful cutter is that with both head sails up at the same time, the boat speed increases. If no increase in speed, it is a poorly designed cutter. At this point, we are where the double headstayed rig comes into play. This is the 'use one sail or the other' kinda thing. In light air, use the big Genny. In rough weather, use the staysail. In Charlies case, if it works well, whats in a name? Tony B
Interesting thread
I have owned a Cheoy Lee Clipper 36 for about a year now. I replaced the genny with a yankee as soon as I had the boat in SF Bay. I tighten the windward side running backstay on a broad reach or a tack, but can't when running with the wind. I would like to hear how other people use them. I mostly single-hand, sometimes with all 4 sails up but haven't flown the spinnaker yet.
I have owned a Cheoy Lee Clipper 36 for about a year now. I replaced the genny with a yankee as soon as I had the boat in SF Bay. I tighten the windward side running backstay on a broad reach or a tack, but can't when running with the wind. I would like to hear how other people use them. I mostly single-hand, sometimes with all 4 sails up but haven't flown the spinnaker yet.
Higgs
It is my understanding that what makes a backstay "running" is the ability to tension and ease one side or the other, depending on tack. I believe your non adjustable(at least not easily adjustable under sail) backstays would be called baby stays but I'll defer to RichH on this.
It is my understanding that what makes a backstay "running" is the ability to tension and ease one side or the other, depending on tack. I believe your non adjustable(at least not easily adjustable under sail) backstays would be called baby stays but I'll defer to RichH on this.
From Higgs description ....
he probably has intermediate stays instead of runners. Intermediate stays were popular for cutter design in the 70s and 80s. They were applied to help prevent mast pumping and to react to the forestay loads. However since they have such a low angle of attachment with the mast (to support the forestay load) they can impart nearly infinite loads to the chainplate system when reacting to strong mast loads ..... not very efficient and add a lot of weight aloft. Mast prebending is a better way to help prevent 'mast pumping'. Runners are only attached to the 'forestay hounds' to react to the forestay loads. Since they run usually down to a deck mounted block closer to the aft of the boat, the attachment angle is much larger hence the trigonometry of the wider angles makes runners very efficient in comparison to intermediates. Modern super high tech line (dyneema, etc.) keep the diameter of the line small hence the weight and wind resistance. Runners usually run from the mast to a block on a pendent attached near or towards the stern .... the line usually runs to an auxiliary winch. I use runners primarily to help keep the heaadstay from sagging well off to leeward when flying a huge genoa to vastly increase pointing ability. I prebend my mast (single spreader) by ~3/4" and dont have 'pumping problems' even in force 10-11.
he probably has intermediate stays instead of runners. Intermediate stays were popular for cutter design in the 70s and 80s. They were applied to help prevent mast pumping and to react to the forestay loads. However since they have such a low angle of attachment with the mast (to support the forestay load) they can impart nearly infinite loads to the chainplate system when reacting to strong mast loads ..... not very efficient and add a lot of weight aloft. Mast prebending is a better way to help prevent 'mast pumping'. Runners are only attached to the 'forestay hounds' to react to the forestay loads. Since they run usually down to a deck mounted block closer to the aft of the boat, the attachment angle is much larger hence the trigonometry of the wider angles makes runners very efficient in comparison to intermediates. Modern super high tech line (dyneema, etc.) keep the diameter of the line small hence the weight and wind resistance. Runners usually run from the mast to a block on a pendent attached near or towards the stern .... the line usually runs to an auxiliary winch. I use runners primarily to help keep the heaadstay from sagging well off to leeward when flying a huge genoa to vastly increase pointing ability. I prebend my mast (single spreader) by ~3/4" and dont have 'pumping problems' even in force 10-11.
Are they used when going downwind?
The running backstays on my boat can be tightened by the windward side jib winch. When I had the genoa up tacking was a little more complicated since both winches were being used. But going downwind was a problem because the running backstays would be in the way when the boom swung out. So I have to move them forward again when I go downwind. Any suggestions?
The running backstays on my boat can be tightened by the windward side jib winch. When I had the genoa up tacking was a little more complicated since both winches were being used. But going downwind was a problem because the running backstays would be in the way when the boom swung out. So I have to move them forward again when I go downwind. Any suggestions?
BaySailor ----
Just use the runner on the opposite side when going downwind - if the boom is out to port, use the stbd side runner. The only problem you'll have is not enough winches on one side (one for jib and one for runner); in that case just run the tail of the runner across the cockpit to a winch, or add auxiliary winches. Also when going downwind, you dont need much force from a runner to help tighten a headstay .... just enough force to the runner to 'help dampen' mast pumping; in most cases you want a more slack head stay for downwind (to increase 'power'). The danger in overtighening a runner is to cause a reverse bend in the mast .... not good as it increases the risk of mast to fail by 'buckling failure'. The goal in using runners when down wind it to keep the mast straight and not pumping ... and it doesnt take much load on a running backstay to do that.
Just use the runner on the opposite side when going downwind - if the boom is out to port, use the stbd side runner. The only problem you'll have is not enough winches on one side (one for jib and one for runner); in that case just run the tail of the runner across the cockpit to a winch, or add auxiliary winches. Also when going downwind, you dont need much force from a runner to help tighten a headstay .... just enough force to the runner to 'help dampen' mast pumping; in most cases you want a more slack head stay for downwind (to increase 'power'). The danger in overtighening a runner is to cause a reverse bend in the mast .... not good as it increases the risk of mast to fail by 'buckling failure'. The goal in using runners when down wind it to keep the mast straight and not pumping ... and it doesnt take much load on a running backstay to do that.
OK,,,,,,,,,
Now THIS is a great thread! But if we get too many like it, we'll know EVERYTHING. Joe, no word on the water tank yet. Let's figure on getting it to you next week.
Now THIS is a great thread! But if we get too many like it, we'll know EVERYTHING. Joe, no word on the water tank yet. Let's figure on getting it to you next week.
Rich
I knew you were a sharp cookie...Wow Great info...I have mast hardware for both inner fore stay ( baby stay ) and runners also deck anchor for baby stay....but I dont see anywhere where the runners would attach aft of mast On the 52 thats in my marina they have them anchored WAY aft behind the mizzen ...I dont quit understand that at first...but your explanation of not really using them running DW explains that...Still I dont see any anchor point on my boat.
I knew you were a sharp cookie...Wow Great info...I have mast hardware for both inner fore stay ( baby stay ) and runners also deck anchor for baby stay....but I dont see anywhere where the runners would attach aft of mast On the 52 thats in my marina they have them anchored WAY aft behind the mizzen ...I dont quit understand that at first...but your explanation of not really using them running DW explains that...Still I dont see any anchor point on my boat.
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