Weather Helm - Sail Cut & Trim

Jan 30, 2012
1,123
Nor'Sea 27 "Kiwanda" Portland/ Anacortes
Tim

Did you consider the information at page 50 (or thereabouts) in the Selden mast tuning reference I provided above?

Charles
 
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Tim22

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Jun 16, 2014
254
Hunter 310 Ottawa
Hi Charles
I used the Selden guide when stepping the mast this spring. The guide only mentions the diagonals for setting the pre bend prior to raising the mast. After that it says that tensioning the uppers will increase the mast bend which it did, and tightening the lowers will restore the bend roughly to the pre raising amount. This all appeared to work as described. It is only when under load that the diagonals go slack and the guide does not seem to address this. It only deals with adjusting for the uppers or lowers being slack, not the diagonals.

Tim
 
Jan 30, 2012
1,123
Nor'Sea 27 "Kiwanda" Portland/ Anacortes
Hi Tim22

I am not there but -

Obviously neither the diagonals nor the reverse diagonals should go slack under sail. Otherwise, there would be no need for counter diagonals. One should adjust such that one diagonal is counteracting the other and mast pre-bend is held solid. If that does not happen then you need to find out why? Examine swedged end fittings for cracks and see to it the cable terminal screw threads are not worn.

Meanwhile to the present problem. To reduce weather helm slack the caps and tension the forestay thus to move the top of the mast forward. The Selden manual describes rake adjustment at page 51.

I cannot offer more from here but your local rigger/sail maker rep should be able to.

Charles
 

Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
8,004
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
As if you need more to consider.... check the tension on your battens. If your battens are over tensioned you will never be able to completely depower your sail. On windy days, you want fairly loose battens to allow your other adjustments more control over draft.
 

Tim22

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Jun 16, 2014
254
Hunter 310 Ottawa
Thanks Charles
I adjusted the caps and forestay today but was unable to get out check the results. I'm more or less in a holding pattern now until the Doyle rep does his test sail on Wednesday or Thursday depending on weather. I'll let you know the results.

Tim
 
Nov 26, 2012
1,653
Hunter 34 Berkeley
Much of the problem is just the boat itself. Hunters are not known for being well balanced boats and they are not known for being heavy air boats. You can do a lot to keep the boat manageable though. When getting overpowered my first course of action is to flatten the main with the outhaul and pull in the main sheets good and tight and then reduce angle of attack by lowering the traveler, depowering the main. Once the wind gets above about 15 consider a reef. Also, moving the jib cars back will depower the jib and reduce heel.
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,076
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
My thought is that you can depower your main with twist. Bring the traveler back up and ease the mainsheet. Spilling air at the top of the mast should make a difference, especially when it is windy. You can reef when you need to, but try increasing twist when you get some wind first. Actually, I don't think very highly about moving the traveler down to change the angle of attack. What good does luffing do (that's essentially what you do by dropping the traveler)? I'd rather keep the lower portion of the sail driving and spill excess wind at the top where you don't need it.
With regard to slack shrouds, I don't know about Hunters rigging guide, but in general, I think slack leeward shrouds can be anticipated as the wind increases over 15 knots. I know my caps and lowers start to go slack. I think no worries.
 
Aug 2, 2010
502
J-Boat J/88 Cobourg
My thought is that you can depower your main with twist. Bring the traveler back up and ease the mainsheet. Spilling air at the top of the mast should make a difference, especially when it is windy. You can reef when you need to, but try increasing twist when you get some wind first. Actually, I don't think very highly about moving the traveler down to change the angle of attack. What good does luffing do (that's essentially what you do by dropping the traveler)? I'd rather keep the lower portion of the sail driving and spill excess wind at the top where you don't need it.
My thinking is similar but with a slightly different reason and I think it depends on what problem you are trying to solve. Adding twist makes sense but mostly to reduce the heeling force at the top of the mast and thereby creating a more forward rather than lateral force. It seems to me that if excessive heeling is the problem then reefing is the answer. If the boat is reasonably flat but with lots of weather helm then de-powering the main is the answer. Wouldn't flattening the sail through out-haul and vang and or traveler/main sheet application to reduce the drive of the main be the first things to try? I am assuming that an over powered main could have the attack angle lowered a long way before luffing was an issue and somewhere on that journey the balance should be back into the sail plan so the weather helm is reduced.
Having never had to deal with a badly cut sail this is a great intellectual problem to solve and I am enjoying all the input. Really looking forward to the answer from the sailmaker...
 

pateco

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Aug 12, 2014
2,207
Hunter 31 (1983) Pompano Beach FL
Great thread. Keep it going, I want to know what is learned since I am sailing a B&R rigged 1983 H31 with used sails from who knows what boat.
 
Nov 26, 2012
1,653
Hunter 34 Berkeley
I have used the lots of twist technique as well. It works but it is not as fast usually. If you do that you should move the jib cars back as well to get twist in the jib. It is good to have a similar shape to both sails. I like to go with the flat main with traveler down first. This is NOT luffing. It is reducing the angle of attach to depower some to get the sail in the "sweet spot". The difference is better control and the boat points better. There are lots of variables here. How much wind? Is the water smooth or choppy? Are you trying to point well? Do you want to go as fast as you can or just be comfortable? All of these things are part of the equation.
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,076
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Wouldn't flattening the sail through out-haul and vang and or traveler/main sheet application to reduce the drive of the main be the first things to try? I am assuming that an over powered main could have the attack angle lowered a long way before luffing was an issue and somewhere on that journey the balance should be back into the sail plan so the weather helm is reduced.
Having never had to deal with a badly cut sail this is a great intellectual problem to solve and I am enjoying all the input. Really looking forward to the answer from the sailmaker...
Agreed, I think the outhaul adjustment had already been mentioned with regard to draft depth, but I didn't recall any discussion of twist. I'm always conscious about outhaul as well (and first, usually, too). I tend to set outhaul (on each point of course) for general conditions and leave it alone. When sailing upwind, I'm always affecting twist with my mainsheet in variable conditions. When sailing downwind, I generally establish twist with the vang and don't play that setting very much. I think that I'm different from many in that I don't like to drop my traveler when sailing upwind.
 
Nov 26, 2012
1,653
Hunter 34 Berkeley
I like to use the mainsheet to tighten the leech and then snug up the vang to hold it in place. Better leverage with the mainsheet.
 
Aug 2, 2010
502
J-Boat J/88 Cobourg
I think that I'm different from many in that I don't like to drop my traveler when sailing upwind.
I set the sail twist first through the use of the main sheet and then simply use the traveler to set the main sheet on each tack. this is really easy with the traveler on the arch of the Hunter, I just wish they had done it with a continuous line since the lazy end can get all balled up preventing full range if you don't pull in the slack when dropping the traveler.
I seldom find any use for the vang in this process since letting the main way out for downwind work means I have to sheet the sail out (farther than the traveler will let me) and I really want to reduce the twist anyway which happens when the downward force of the sheet is removed.
The outhaul is not available to set from the cockpit so I usually set it tight for heavy wind and leave it loose for light.
Dan
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,076
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
I like to use the mainsheet to tighten the leech and then snug up the vang to hold it in place. Better leverage with the mainsheet.
Well, that does work, except that it limits your options, I think, because the vang is then limiting twist. When sailing upwind, I think I am more effective spilling excess wind in gusts with angle of attack AND twist, which I can do simply by easing the main when the vang is off. If you want to adjust angle of attack, say for wind shifts or puffs and lulls (changing apparent wind), but you want twist controlled, then move your traveler up or down accordingly.
The vang is really needed for setting twist on reaches when the traveler is all the way down and the mainsheet is extended. That's when the mainsheet sets angle of attack and the vang sets twist.
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,076
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
I set the sail twist first through the use of the main sheet and then simply use the traveler to set the main sheet on each tack. this is really easy with the traveler on the arch of the Hunter, I just wish they had done it with a continuous line since the lazy end can get all balled up preventing full range if you don't pull in the slack when dropping the traveler.
I seldom find any use for the vang in this process since letting the main way out for downwind work means I have to sheet the sail out (farther than the traveler will let me) and I really want to reduce the twist anyway which happens when the downward force of the sheet is removed.
The outhaul is not available to set from the cockpit so I usually set it tight for heavy wind and leave it loose for light.
Dan
I think some boats are set up where it is easier to adjust traveler, rather than main sail sheet. I have my traveler set up with controls but I still find main sheet adjustments easier and more effective, so I tend to use my main sheet continuously.
I think you are thinking about twist backwards with regard to the main sheet on a reach or run. Easing the main sheet always increases twist, except when the vang controls twist. When the traveler is all the way down and the main sheet out, reducing twist is performed by tightening the vang. In fact, the vang is most needed when the boom is out. Nothing else is holding it down, otherwise.
Outhaul and vang adjustments really should be at hand in the cockpit, with enough purchase to use them without needing a winch. I found my vang, at 4:1, is not adequate except with aid from a cabin top winch. I intend to increase the purchase to 8:1 to make it hand adjustable.
 
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May 17, 2004
2,099
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
I've been following this thread and when I saw it developed into a discussion on the outhaul, traveler & boom vang I thought that it would get interesting with conflicting information but every lister was spot on. What a great exchange of correct sail trim info. Sailors that don't get their info from the folks on this forum don't know what they're missing!!
 

Tim22

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Jun 16, 2014
254
Hunter 310 Ottawa
Thanks for all the great observations and suggestions. I have tried many of them including dropping the traveler, adding twist, tightening the out haul. All have made some difference to the weather helm but none have reduced it to an acceptable level for 10 to 12 knot winds.

Unfortunately the winds here have now dropped to 2 knots so tough to do further testing. As a result the test sail with the Doyle rep has been postponed until next week.

From my testing so far, and from the comments on Hunter handling characteristics, I am starting to wonder if the boat isn't simply overpowered as it is a fight to stop it from rounding up in 10 to 12 knots of wind regardless of the sail trim, mast rake, or mast bend. Looking at the recommendations of various sail makers, the suggested mainsail size ranges from 308 sq ft to 277 sq ft. A difference of about 10%. Mine is at the high end and given that most of the extra area is carried aloft in the roach, I would think it's affect on healing, and therefore weather helm, would be more pronounced. My jib also appears to be on the large side, but not as much. I would be grateful of any thoughts or ideas as this will help greatly when working with the Doyle rep next week.

Thanks
Tim
 
Feb 14, 2014
7,418
Hunter 430 Waveland, MS
As the weather helm took all my strength to hold course, she nosed down and healed to spill the wind out of the main.
I think the mast is just a bit too far forward for a near hull speed run on Hunter models XX0.

If you adjust your stays and pre-bend...
Much of the pre-bend is to compensate for the head sail pull, as your mast tends to straighten, especially with a 110% jib at near hull speeds.

On my 430, I found the OEM jib was 60% of the speed and the main 40% for light seas and 15 knot sustained winds. A comfortable ride at 7.5 knots.
Jim...

PS: Great tips on Main sail adjustments. I wonders what all those control line did!;):liar:
 
Aug 2, 2010
502
J-Boat J/88 Cobourg
I think the mast is just a bit too far forward for a near hull speed run on Hunter models XX0.
Friday night we went out for a little sail to dispense with the stresses of the week and since we had thunder heads in the area and no place we had to be I just unfurled the jib and left the main down in case we got some big gusts. When the big gusts came (15-20 knots), we saw over 6 knots with a high of 6.33 knots with a pretty balanced helm just flying the jib. She wouldn't point very well but I was amazed at the speed and balance. I expected a lot of lee helm but the lack of it made me wonder how much weather helm I may be unconsciously experiencing with the main up. Next time I have both sails up and get a heavy wind condition I am going to check the water flow out the stern to see if it looks like the rudder is fighting the flow and costing me speed. I think getting anything over 6 knots on our fat 29'er is getting close to hull speed but maybe there is more there yet!
Dan
 
Jul 14, 2015
840
Catalina 30 Stillhouse Hollow Marina
Friday night we went out for a little sail to dispense with the stresses of the week and since we had thunder heads in the area and no place we had to be I just unfurled the jib and left the main down in case we got some big gusts. When the big gusts came (15-20 knots), we saw over 6 knots with a high of 6.33 knots with a pretty balanced helm just flying the jib. She wouldn't point very well but I was amazed at the speed and balance. I expected a lot of lee helm but the lack of it made me wonder how much weather helm I may be unconsciously experiencing with the main up. Next time I have both sails up and get a heavy wind condition I am going to check the water flow out the stern to see if it looks like the rudder is fighting the flow and costing me speed. I think getting anything over 6 knots on our fat 29'er is getting close to hull speed but maybe there is more there yet!
Dan
Move the main to leeward with a traveler