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VOR boats, why not double headsails all the time?

Discussion in 'Sail Trim with Don Guillette' started by danstanford, Nov 15, 2017. Add this thread to a FAQ

  1. danstanford

    danstanford

    Joined Aug 2, 2010
    206 posts, 29 likes
    Beneteau 323
    CA Cobourg
    Watching the various bits on the internet, I see the boats flying two headsails fairly often and it looks to be fantastic. The sails seem both to be drawing well and the main is also drawing well, so I wonder why they don't do it all the time? I can understand downwind conditions might not suit this set-up but more sail area should be better than less if everything is working properly, shouldn't it?
    BTW, it is nice to have friends to discuss this stuff with so thanks!

    Dan
     


  2. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    8,426 posts, 1,858 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    The simple and straightforward answer is that is not as fast. They do it only when its faster.

    The reason why is complex. It will generally work in certain apparent wind angles, and when the boat is going fast. Most mortal boats do not see theses angles with their spinnakers up, so never get the chance. But most racing Asym-boats (J/70 Fareast28r) do, and on those boats the simple rule is, if the boat is planing the jib stays up.
     


  3. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    8,426 posts, 1,858 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    Here's a fun chart to show where it can happen. This is a Sail Chart, then shows what sails can be used in what wind speed and angles. Its actually a graphical view of VOR65 data that is fed into the weather router, so the SW can use the correct sails in its calculations. You can see the overlaps in the 90TWA ranges once the wind comes up.

    sail-chart.jpg
     


  4. shemandr

    shemandr

    Joined Jan 1, 2006
    3,319 posts, 456 likes
    Marblehead Skiff 14'
    US Greenport, NY
    I'm not used to reading charts like this but I'm interested in that all the sail combos start at a little over 30 degrees. I can't read the bottom which show which sail combinations correspond to the chart colors. But I find it interesting that all combinations provide close winded to off winded sailing at around 150 degrees. I'm used to thinking of upwind and downwind sails. But the yellow band, for example, is a very versatile set up and I would expect that to be used quite a bit. I guess the speed of the boats makes less of an upwind/downwind gradient analogous to the foiling catamarans.
     


  5. Brian D

    Brian D Moderator

    Joined Feb 17, 2006
    3,821 posts, 552 likes
    Lancer 27PS
    US MCB Camp Pendleton, Ca KF6BL
    He said "mortal boats". LOL
     


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  6. Kermit

    Kermit

    Joined Jul 31, 2010
    4,372 posts, 1,540 likes
    Hunter 260
    US Lake Murray Sailing Club, SC


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  7. Bill19233

    Bill19233

    Joined Jan 22, 2008
    293 posts, 139 likes
    Hunter 340
    US Baytown TX
    Why not triple headsails more often?

    Captures.JPG

     


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  8. Meriachee

    Meriachee

    Joined Aug 1, 2011
    2,373 posts, 588 likes
    Catalina 270
    CA Wabamun - on the orange ball
    Gee, that foil sticking out of the deck is lifting the boat almost out of the water. :) Maybe they should make them cant above the waterline too.
     


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  9. Will Gilmore

    Will Gilmore

    Joined Oct 19, 2017
    2,147 posts, 841 likes
    O'Day 19
    US Littleton, NH
    What a concept. Solid foil sail when on one tack, dagger board when on the other. :thumbup: That way, the wind foil being more to windward, there would be a shorter heeling force while still getting that foil up into the air. Of course all the righting force is gravity reliant not buoyancy reliant. Or is there a keel too?
    Will (Dragonfly)
     


  10. Benny17441

    Benny17441

    Joined May 24, 2004
    5,318 posts, 293 likes
    CC 30
    US South Florida
    I think he is referring to a Stay Sail and not a Spinnaker. You all know what they say, "take it up and gain half a knot or take it down and gain half a knot". Some love them, others would not have them. They have limitations to optimal wind speeds and optimal points of sail. The most common set up is as a second headsail and can be used to store a light air or heavy weather headsail and used accordingly.
     


  11. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    8,426 posts, 1,858 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    Ah, I could see that. This is not done now because long ago NAs learned that the fastest practical sail combination for small boats was Bermudian sloop (single stayed headsail + main). Other combinations upwind (cutter) are old solutions created to solve problems that modern boats don't have.

    Off the wind (as noted), different story.
     


  12. danstanford

    danstanford

    Joined Aug 2, 2010
    206 posts, 29 likes
    Beneteau 323
    CA Cobourg
    So, is it too simplistic to compare this to a sail trimmed fuller rather than flatter? More power can be generated but the boat may well be slower.
    In addition to this question, is that chart True Wind Angle? Can they really point to low 30's true?
    Thanks, Dan
     


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  13. Will Gilmore

    Will Gilmore

    Joined Oct 19, 2017
    2,147 posts, 841 likes
    O'Day 19
    US Littleton, NH
    I have been told that biplanes and triplanes began to lose lift efficiancy with the addition of each new wing. They generated more lift to a point but the upper wing took away from some of the lift of the lower. More modern biplanes have more offset because of this. The upper wing is much more forward.
    - Will (Dragonfly)
     


  14. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    8,426 posts, 1,858 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    Yes.
    Well, all the jibs (J0-J3) are staysails, and the codes (FRO and MHO) sure can, thats shown on the chart. The true flying sails (Gennakers) come into play (as the chart shows) at a wider wind angle.
     


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  15. JamesG161

    JamesG161

    Joined Feb 14, 2014
    2,472 posts, 603 likes
    Hunter 430
    US Waveland, MS
    Yep!
    If I got caught using that graph on a school test....

    CHEATING!!!

    I use think I could compete in a race from just seamanship.:badbad:

    Prediction: Auto pilot from the marina bar using an iPad app to race.
    Jim....
     


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  16. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    8,426 posts, 1,858 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    Oh please. Sailor have used charts and cheat sheets with angle and sail choices as long as I’ve been sailing. Nothing new here. Everyone does it. The fastest still win. Every race boat I know has its polar chart taped to the bulkhead.
     


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  17. Kermit

    Kermit

    Joined Jul 31, 2010
    4,372 posts, 1,540 likes
    Hunter 260
    US Lake Murray Sailing Club, SC
    That’s what Lance said.
     


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  18. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    8,426 posts, 1,858 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    Nope. Now you're implying it’s cheating, just hidden.

    This behavior is clearly and explicitly allowed by the RRS.
     


  19. danstanford

    danstanford

    Joined Aug 2, 2010
    206 posts, 29 likes
    Beneteau 323
    CA Cobourg
    Interesting today to see the VOR 1300 UTC Daily Live – Saturday 18 November showing Turn The Tide and Scallywag running right together and on a parallel course. Scallywag carrying 3 head sails and TTOP with 2 (as far as I could see) and in one picture looked like only 1 head sail. Clearly a subtle, but important, distinction with quite little impact on speed given their proximity to each other. They referred to it as two boat testing!
     


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  20. Will Gilmore

    Will Gilmore

    Joined Oct 19, 2017
    2,147 posts, 841 likes
    O'Day 19
    US Littleton, NH
    Sorry I can't remember his name but, there was a scientist (physicist) who turned his attention to chemistry and made Some significant contributions. When life long career chemists complained about him not putting the time in to actually learning chemistry, they pointed out that he didn't even know the periodic table of elements. His response was, something to the effect of, "why waste my time learning something that is right there hanging on the wall?"
    - Will (Dragonfly)
     


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