Trouble with our head.

[MSN-Oday]

Hey Guys,

We are having an issue with our head on our 83' Oday 26. We are getting black water flowing back into the bowl when ever we are heeled over. I'm wondering if there may be a stuck one way valve or something. I can't remember the type of head on the boat right now. I'll have to look it up in our records or get into the storage shed at the marina to check. Anyone have any ideas? Should I install a one way valve if there is not one in the system?

Thanks Scott

 

[Richard19068]

Does it flow more on one tack compared to the other?
Is the holding tank full?
Is it flowing heavily or just leaking slowly?
Have you changed the joker valve in the recent past?

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

All marine toilets have what's called a joker valve in the discharge. It's a rubber cup shaped doodad with a slit in the bottom and "lips" on the outside and it's located inside the discharge fitting that's attached to the pump. The flange on the valve is the gasket that seals the connection. A brand new one will block back flow until enough flushes have gone through it to stretch the slit...the slit gets wider with more use, until finally it becomes a hole. It needs to be replaced at least every two years. I suspect it's been a lot longer than that since yours was replaced. However, blocking back flow is a joker valve's least important job...it's actually the most important degradable part in every manual marine toilet. You'll find the reason why in an article "joker valve 101" if you search the archives of the plumbing and sanitation forum (which, btw, is where this thread belongs).

Your toilet prob'ly also needs a rebuild kit (replaces all th seals, valves, o-rings and gaskets)...assuming it's not too old for kits to still be available for it. If it's anywhere near the age of your boat, none will be...it's time for a new toilet. I can ID it for you if you'll post a photo of it that has a good view of the PUMP from above it (all bowls look alike).
Meanwhile, I suggest you check out the link in my signature here...it goes to a comprehensive "marine toilets and holding tanks 101" manual that will help you learn how your sanitation system works and how to maintain it. And I'm always glad to answer any questions it doesn't.
Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein

 

[Tally Ho]

As Peggy said, probably the joker valve.

Pretty easy ( but not tasteful) to replace. Separate the elbow joint and the joker is in there.
Here is a video on a Jabsco Head...

My previous boat had a Jabsco Head, that needed lots of TLC and was always a problem. My current O’Day 322 has a Raritan PHII Head, and it has not needed much of anything in the 4-5 years that I have owned her.

Greg

 

[Richard19068]

If he had said it was flowing back all the time then I might suspect the joker valve as the first item. But he said it only flowed back when he was healing. Doesn't that point to a problem in addition to joker valve? After a flush there shouldn't be effluent sitting against the joker valve to flow back. If he is not getting a good flush because of a bad joker valve it would flow back whether or not he was healing wouldn't it?

 

[Tally Ho]

Maybe. I think it depends on his plumbing.

Could be a plugged vent, but then it would be hard to flush.

I usually start with the simple things.

Greg

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

But he said it only flowed back when he was healing. Doesn't that point to a problem in addition to joker valve?

Yep...a bad plumbing design that runs the toilet discharge line along the hull to tank fittings that are also next to the hull, and also put vent fittings on the "outboard" side of the tank, which is how almost all boat builders do it. That allows even a half full tank to spill into the toilet discharge line and also spill out the vent when a boat is heeled. I only addressed the joker valve because a new one is an immediate "band aid" fix. He's prob'ly gonna need a new toilet AND new hoses. We can correct the plumbing mistakes then...an easy and very inexpensive job.

Sounds like he's not the only one here who could profit from checking out the link in my signature.

 

[Richard19068]

Yep...a bad plumbing design that runs the toilet discharge line along the hull to tank fittings that are also next to the hull, and also put vent fittings on the "outboard" side of the tank, which is how almost all boat builders do it. That allows even a half full tank to spill into the toilet discharge line and also spill out the vent when a boat is heeled. I only addressed the joker valve because a new one is an immediate "band aid" fix. He's prob'ly gonna need a new toilet AND new hoses. We can correct the plumbing mistakes then...an easy and very inexpensive job.

Sounds like he's not the only one here who could profit from checking out the link in my signature.

I've had your book for over 10 years.

Thanks.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

I've had your book for over 10 years.

You have the first edition which is badly outdated. The new updated, revised and expanded 2nd edition has only been out for two years.

 

[Pat]

The original head on our 272 LE was a Groco HF....we switched it to a Raritan PH2 (?) after about 7 years or so....

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

As long as you keep it well lubricated, replace the joker valve at least every two years, and put a rebuild kit in it every 5-6 years, a PH II should give you at least 20 years of reliable, trouble-free service. If it's older than7 years and never had a rebuild kit or worse yet, a new joker valve, it NEEDS one or both! You'll be amazed at how much more efficient it will be because all toilets become less and less efficient as the rubber parts in them become worn.

 

[MSN-Oday]

Head Mistress you are awesome...
I think you've pretty much nailed it! Everything you said is correct. I will probably end up replacing the head and redoing the plumbing but will find my way over the boat and take some pictures of the suspect parts.
Can anyone recommend a good replacement head for our 26' O-Day?

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

You're not only gonna need a new toilet, you'r gonna need new hoses and--depending on size and condition--maybe a new holding tank. All of that eats up a lot of storage space on your boat and can make an even bigger dent in your budget! So I hope you'll give this some thought:

On any boat much smaller than about 28', a self-contained system—an "MSD" portapotty-- makes a lot of sense. The "MSD" designation in the model name/number means it has fittings for a pumpout line and vent line, and is designed to be permanently installed (actually just sturdier brackets than portables, so you could still take it off the boat if you absolutely have to), which means that although it's still called a PORTApotty, you don't have to carry anything off the boat to empty it.

A 5-6 gallon model holds 50-60 flushes...you'd need at least a 30 gal tank to hold that many from a manual marine toilet. No plumbing needed except a vent line and pumpout hose--so no new holes in the boat and you can glass over any that you already have...and -0- maintenance needed except for rinsing out the tank--which you can do with a bucket while it's being pumped out. Total cost including the pumpout hose and vent line is about $200--a fraction of what you'd spend for toilet, tank and all the related plumbing needed. And the best part is, you have all the advantages of a toilet and holding tank without giving up a single square foot of storage space. Quite a few people here who own boats in the 25-29' range have this system and I have yet to see a post from anyone who isn't very happy with it.

Check out the Thetford 550P MSD and the Dometic/SeaLand 975MSD Sanipottie

 

[MSN-Oday]

I like the sound of this Peggy. The forward hold under the V berth would be much better utilized for something other than a big ol tank.

I have other issue that may be a problem...
First, the previous owner of the boat plumbed the potable water tank to the head. So we don't use the potable water system for anything other than the head for obvious reasons. I have no idea why he plumbed it this way.
Second, the through hole fittings that we would need to use for a new and proper installation most likely not been exercised in years. I know that we should exercise them and confirm they are not leaking and than install a new and properly plumbed head. Ugh...

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

The first one is actually easy to solve:
First, the previous owner of the boat plumbed the potable water tank to the head. So we don't use the potable water system for anything other than the head for obvious reasons.
Is the toilet the only thing the water tank is connected to? If he just added a line to the toilet, you'll need to get rid of that, and then recommission the system. The directions I've posted here a dozen times (and that are also in my book) clearly stated that they "conform to section 10.8 in the A-1 192 code covering electrical, plumbing, and heating of recreational vehicles (which includes boats). The solution is approved and recommended by competent health officials. It may be used in a new system, a used one that has not been used for a period of time, or one that may have been contaminated." Look for the article "Fresh Water Maintenance" in the plumbing and sanitation forum archives.
If he just rerouted the fresh water to the toilet, you'll need to run new plumbing to the sinks (I'd do that whether he did or not)...but only AFTER you've sanitized the tank using the same solution.

Second, the through hole fittings that we would need to use for a new and proper installation most likely not been exercised in years. I know that we should exercise them and confirm they are not leaking and than install a new and properly plumbed head.
Going with the self-contained MSD Portapotty solves that problem, 'cuz you won't need 'em if you do. It only needs a pumpout line and vent line If the boat hasn't had a holding tank, you'll prob'ly need to buy a deck pumpout fitting and 5/8" thru-hull fitting that will go well ABOVE the waterline but I included those in my estimated total cost. NO other plumbing...nothing connected to any below-waterline thru-hull. You fill up the flush water reservoir with a milk jug or pitcher. So you can remove those thru-hulls and seacocks and glass over the holes. You'll need some help from someone who's knowledgeable about fiberglass "patching," but it's not rocket science and a learning curve that can come in handy later.

 

[MSN-Oday]

Peggie,
We purchased the Thedford 550. I believe this will give us many advantages. 1- it will give us the ability to use the water system in the boat for its proper purpose. 2- we can remove the black water holding tank in the bow and gain much storage space. 3- by using the Porta potty we will be able to empty at any usable toilet. We will not be limited to sailing the boat across the entire lake or to a specific location to use a pump out system. The Thedford can Easily be carried like a suitcase to any respectable toilet or outhouse and emptied. Thank you for your suggestion I believe this will greatly enhance our boating season. I will be happy to report back to anyone has any questions about its use, convenience or operation.

Thanks,
Scott

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Two problems with the portable version: 1. a full 5.5 gal tank weighs more than 50 lbs--a LOT to carry off a boat and to a toilet where you can dump it. 2. A lot of marinas no longer allow portapotty disposal in their restrooms because too many people can't manage (or don't try very hard) to get it all into the toilet bowl . On a holiday weekend the restrooms become such a stinking mess that they're unuseable.

So if you haven't installed it yet, I strongly recommend you exchange it for the MSD version. That will let you have it both ways--carry the tank off the boat when that works best--but before it's more than half full!--pump it out when that works.

 

[MSN-Oday]

Copy that.
Honestly, I missed the part about the MSD. I will look into the availability of exchanging. It is still in the box.
Just understand completely. The MSD version still has the ability to carry off and dump and has a pump out ability?

 

[dziedzicmj]

I have yet to see a post from anyone who isn't very happy with it

Peggy, I would never even try to contradict you, but...
I wasn't (happy with the MSD portapotty (it was a Thetford but that is irrelevant here)).

I had this kind of head on the previous boat (a C&C 24). It made sense, because the boat was substantially smaller. There are two issues:
- the main one - the flushing pump. It does not last long (a couple of seasons), especially, if stored on the boat in winter. Replacement is reasonably easy, but the parts availability is not.
- comfort/convenience - if you have to sit on the throne, you are, usually, sitting on a very high stool. Our original was the larger model (7 gal?) and we replaced it with a smaller one (4 gal?) mainly for that reason.

So, in short, I would never go back. In fact, the proper head was one of the mandatory requirements when we bought the new boat.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Sorry you weren't happy with yours. It may have depended on the model available at the time. However...

There are two issues:
- the main one - the flushing pump. It does not last long (a couple of seasons), especially, if stored on the boat in winter. Replacement is reasonably easy, but the parts availability is not.

Hadn't heard of this before, but you do have long COLD winters that can dry out plastics. The simple solution would have been to take it off the boat for the winter. And it may have depended on the flush mechanism available at that time...like everything else portapotties have evolved over time to solve problems.

- comfort/convenience - if you have to sit on the throne, you are, usually, sitting on a very high stool. Our original was the larger model (7 gal?) and we replaced it with a smaller one (4 gal?) mainly for that reason.

Portapotties only come in two sizes--about 2.5 gal and about 5.5 gal....no 7 gals. Whether it's a portable or MSD version makes no difference. I suspect your boat has a raised platform the toilet sits on. Its purpose is to put compact manual toilets at standard "household" height instead of "squatting on a bucket." Removing it to install the 5.5 gal portapotty--portable or MSD is necessary to bring the seat down to standard household height. Keeping the platform would raise 2.5 size to household height.