Trouble tacking in light wind no jib

Jun 18, 2016
26
Macgregor 26X Petoskey
i was in light wind 5-9kt and we are getting used to my 170. A few times the wind gusted and the first mate didn’t know what to do with the jib and it was getting bothersome. So I had her furl in the jib.
Then we had major problems getting through a tack. Ended up having to just swing through a jib to get where we wanted to go. A big loop. But good practice. I noticed if I grabbed the main sheet as we were going through the tack and forced it over we were able to finish a few tacks.
So two questions
1 would it be good in low winds to keep a small portion of the jib out to help with tacking.

2 I realized the manual pulling of the main over during the tack is like a traveler, and I wonder would it best to and how to move the main sheet to the afte end of he boom. Getting it more to center line. Using hopefully the blocks and fiddle I already have.
Oh and
3 I just thought of this the mains sheet on the deck is very hard to get to lock in. Would end sheeting help that too by moving the cam cleat?
 
Apr 16, 2017
841
Federation NCC-1701 Riverside
Your jib is the giving you speed. 5-9kt is slow to just in the 170 sweet spot. Id put a reef in the main and leave jib. I usually start each sail with just the main until all lines are secure and everyone is comfortable. It can be slow going and there isnt as much control.

You need either more speed or more torque. Instead of avoiding weather helm you want more of it. If you have good main trim and some moving water going over the centerboard and rudder but not enough to tack, try heeling on purpose as if you needed to reef. This will move the main over the water and away from center inducing round up. Use that additional momentum to get you through

Make sure that centerboard has a glass like polish on leading edge. A dull blade will destroy upwind.
 
Jun 18, 2016
26
Macgregor 26X Petoskey
I realize having both sail out in light winds is the norm but we want less to watch. And there is no reef in the main, that’s on the upgrade list!
Thanks for the tips.

Do you know about moving the sheet to the aft end of the boom?
 
Apr 16, 2017
841
Federation NCC-1701 Riverside
There is a owner modification section where others have done that. If not for the 170 then the 145 and 216. Youd be able to bring the boom closer to center but still not exact.

I dont have the end sheeting so when going upwind ill pull the boom in or ask crew to do it if we think were on a speed run. It gives a little boost, but not enough to clutter the transom.

Theres a guy on youtube with a 170 all tricked out and he's got the endsheeting. Hes having a goid time in what looks like new york

About locking mainsheet sheets...dont.
Check the bottom set of purchases for the main. Mine ratchet. There is a peg that slides from ratchet on to rachet off. Make sure the purchase is going the right direction so you are not racheting the release of the main. Did that....it gets really difficult to pull in the sheet when working against the rachet.

End sheeting probably wont give you that much of a gain.
 
Jun 18, 2016
26
Macgregor 26X Petoskey
There is a owner modification section where others have done that. If not for the 170 then the 145 and 216. Youd be able to bring the boom closer to center but still not exact.

I dont have the end sheeting so when going upwind ill pull the boom in or ask crew to do it if we think were on a speed run. It gives a little boost, but not enough to clutter the transom.

Theres a guy on youtube with a 170 all tricked out and he's got the endsheeting. Hes having a goid time in what looks like new york

About locking mainsheet sheets...dont.
Check the bottom set of purchases for the main. Mine ratchet. There is a peg that slides from ratchet on to rachet off. Make sure the purchase is going the right direction so you are not racheting the release of the main. Did that....it gets really difficult to pull in the sheet when working against the rachet.

End sheeting probably wont give you that much of a gain.
I used the pulling in on the main and that is how I got through a few tacks. Which led me to think about the end sheeting. But I agree it didn’t add that much speed and if I was a speed junkie I wouldn’t have a 170 I guess. Something with a weighted keel and long at the waterline. Lol

I check you were right my purchase was backwards I would hear the ratchet sound as I let it out. So I think I was pulling against the locking mechanism. Duh. I will switch it around and see how everything goes.

It should make the ratchet sound as I pull in correct?
Thanks
 
Apr 16, 2017
841
Federation NCC-1701 Riverside
It should make the ratchet sound as I pull in correct?
Thanks
Yep. Pull in and it should click. There should be resistance hold the boom from going out as the one purchase only spins one way. Slide the peg and all purchases spin freely.

Ratchet off for light winds and packing up.
 

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Apr 7, 2016
184
Beneteau First 305 Seward, Alaska
I had to do that once with the admiral. It does make it hard with the main only. But, I found that if you veer off the wind, pick up a little speed, and turn hard through it, it works like a champ also.

Juice
 
Oct 19, 2017
7,733
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
The jib helps tacking in light winds by giving you lee helm after you've crossed the wind. It helps you finish the tack by falling off faster on the other side. Without the jib, it is perfectly legitimate to give the main boom over by hand, on a small boat. Timing and practice wil make it easier. Fall off a little, to pickup speed and momentum. Don't push the rudder over, steer it over, or you stall the momentum. Back wind the main as you come up then, let it go as soon as you cross the wind. Don't stall with the rudder, beginner's mistake.

-Will (Dragonfly)
 
Jun 18, 2016
26
Macgregor 26X Petoskey
Was trying to do a smooth turn not hard over, to not stall as you said. Question if you backwind the main isn’t that pushing the bow the opposite direction you want it to go. I’ve heard of backwinding the jib before you release it. I pulled in the main to r past center one to get it to power longer then pulled it over to the Lee side when we went through the wind to again hopefully get it working sooner. Curious

Darn I will have to practice practice practice
 
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Joe

.
Jun 1, 2004
7,999
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
Instead of trying to re rig your boat because you think a headsail makes things more complicated... why don't you just learn to use the jib.... for crying out loud. There's two of you one the boat, right. The crew works the jib and centerboard, the helmsman handles the tiller and the mainsheet. In a headsail, mainsail rig such as yours.. the boat will handle way better with both sails working together than the main struggling to steer through a tack... it's just not designed to do that by itself... because the mast is placed further back than it would be on a single sail boat....

Here's what you instruct your crew to do when you tack.
First is the preparative command.... you say: "prepare to come about" or "get ready tack"
the she gets ready by making sure the new sheet will be wrapped on the winch, or if no winch it is set in the cleat and ready to pull in... the old sheet is held in her hand, ready to toss off the winch or let loose so it won't jam in the cleat or fairlead... then she acknowledges by saying... "ready to tack"
Next is the executing/action command.... you say "helm's alee" or "tacking!" or "here we go"... whatever... then she eases the sheet a bit and waits for the boat to start turning.... then.......... and this is the most important thing to understand.... she does not throw the sheet off right away... she lets it backwind a bit to push the bow across....when the boom wants to come across on its own...she can then release the sheet completely, making sure it is free to run and not tangle in the rigging... the WIND will finish pushing the sail across the foredeck.... she should not try to pull the sail across with the new sheet...
While the wind is doing its job, she will be stripping in the slack from the new sheet until it can be cleated and you are on the new course.

Your job as helmsman is to let the crew know your intention, wait for her acknowledgment, and then call the turn. Since you're sailing upwind... the mainsail and boom will take care of itself. There is no need to pull it across early... let the boat do the work.. It's more efficient to let the sail out a little just before the turn so the you can bear off a little on the new tack to pick up speed, then head back up to your course and trim accordingly.

Once you do that a few times you'll be stoked. Here's another revelation... The boat turns, it rotates around its keel/or centerboard. The bow goes one way, the stern the other. So.... headsail pressure tends to push the bow downwind while the main, which is mostly behind the centerboard, will push the stern downwind... and that causes the boat to want to turn. More jib pressure... the boat wants to bear off... more mainsail pressure the boat wants to head up.. does that make sense??? So.... your goal when sailing is to balance the pressure between both sails so that there is a slight tendency for the boat to want to veer upwind when you take you hand off the tiller.... that's called "weather helm" And, simply speaking, it makes the boat sail better.

Now, the reason you're having so much trouble tacking with mainsail only... once the boat enters the no sail area... head to wind.... the mainsail can no longer push the stern around...it wants to keep pushing the stern into the win.... momentum is all you got... and in light air, there isn't enough speed to develop the momentum you need. On a cat rigged boat, such as the single sail Laser, the mast is farther forward and part of the mainsail is now in position to help push the bow around.... not so on a sloop rig like yours. Trying to "backwind" the main will not work.. the main will constantly try to turn the boat into the wind... no matter which side it's on.

If you've got this far through this post .... then you're a real trouper... I encourage you to hoist both sails next time and get after it... good luck....enjoy
 
Last edited:
Oct 19, 2017
7,733
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
Everything, after momentum and steerage, depends on center of effort over center of lateral resistance. The main, without the jib, should move the center of effort aft of your center of lateral resistance (usually about the middle of your centerboard or daggerboard). By backwinding the main just at the beginning of your tack you can give a little kick to bring the stern around, you don't want to do it too hard or you lose momentum, but it can really help to come up into the wind. Don't let it stop the boat and don't sheet in, on the new tack, too early or you end up bringing her back into the wind when you want her to continue falling off. You have to develop a feel for it with practice.
You should practice this, but really, you should practice with your regular crew using your jib. It's only scary when you're crew doesn't know what to expect and haven't learned to trust you. They will really get into it when they are part of the action and not just passengers.

-Will (Dragonfly)
 
Apr 16, 2017
841
Federation NCC-1701 Riverside
why don't you just learn to use the jib
First mate probably isnt as bitten by sailing as the helmsman. My first mate has no idea how to trim the jib other than make sure it does not flap like a flag.

The 170 actually sails politely with just the main. It wont sail fast though. I went the first year hardly ever using jib. After the next year my sons and i got more confident to where we start with just the main and then raise jib as the jitters of the boat ramp and excitement of getting on the water settle down. If i go by myself its still just the main and wind is under 10 kt. With familiy along we have an arbitrary rule that if we cant handle jib its time to head home. Jib will double 170 speed and can get you on plane and actually help point up wind. More speed, better pointing, its worth getting confident with it.

Original poster is probably pinching upwind. Fall off the wind like other posters say. You absolutely need water running to tack. You can tack in place without moving, but you need to induce massive heel to do it the jib makes this even easier.

I also mess with rc boats. In a strong puff the sailboat will heel over more than 45 degrees and immediately round up. Usually, it will do a full tack, then sail all on its own in a perfect pinch upwind. It cant turn back off the wind until the wind slackens. The extreme heel ruins rudder control so im screwed. The way out is to flick tbe rudder. The rudder at extreme heel is mostly just slowing the boat down. If you use too much rudder when pinned in an upwind tack its almost like heaving to. By flicking the rudder you allow speed to build.
 
Jun 18, 2016
26
Macgregor 26X Petoskey
Instead of trying to re rig your boat because you think a headsail makes things more complicated... why don't you just learn to use the jib.... for crying out loud. There's two of you one the boat, right. The crew works the jib and centerboard, the helmsman handles the tiller and the mainsheet. In a headsail, mainsail rig such as yours.. the boat will handle way better with both sails working together than the main struggling to steer through a tack... it's just not designed to do that by itself... because the mast is placed further back than it would be on a single sail boat....

Here's what you instruct your crew to do when you tack.
First is the preparative command.... you say: "prepare to come about" or "get ready tack"
the she gets ready by making sure the new sheet will be wrapped on the winch, or if no winch it is set in the cleat and ready to pull in... the old sheet is held in her hand, ready to toss off the winch or let loose so it won't jam in the cleat or fairlead... then she acknowledges by saying... "ready to tack"
Next is the executing/action command.... you say "helm's alee" or "tacking!" or "here we go"... whatever... then she eases the sheet a bit and waits for the boat to start turning.... then.......... and this is the most important thing to understand.... she does not throw the sheet off right away... she lets it backwind a bit to push the bow across....when the boom wants to come across on its own...she can then release the sheet completely, making sure it is free to run and not tangle in the rigging... the WIND will finish pushing the sail across the foredeck.... she should not try to pull the sail across with the new sheet...
While the wind is doing its job, she will be stripping in the slack from the new sheet until it can be cleated and you are on the new course.

Your job as helmsman is to let the crew know your intention, wait for her acknowledgment, and then call the turn. Since you're sailing upwind... the mainsail and boom will take care of itself. There is no need to pull it across early... let the boat do the work.. It's more efficient to let the sail out a little just before the turn so the you can bear off a little on the new tack to pick up speed, then head back up to your course and trim accordingly.

Once you do that a few times you'll be stoked. Here's another revelation... The boat turns, it rotates around its keel/or centerboard. The bow goes one way, the stern the other. So.... headsail pressure tends to push the bow downwind while the main, which is mostly behind the centerboard, will push the stern downwind... and that causes the boat to want to turn. More jib pressure... the boat wants to bear off... more mainsail pressure the boat wants to head up.. does that make sense??? So.... your goal when sailing is to balance the pressure between both sails so that there is a slight tendency for the boat to want to veer upwind when you take you hand off the tiller.... that's called "weather helm" And, simply speaking, it makes the boat sail better.

Now, the reason you're having so much trouble tacking with mainsail only... once the boat enters the no sail area... head to wind.... the mainsail can no longer push the stern around...it wants to keep pushing the stern into the win.... momentum is all you got... and in light air, there isn't enough speed to develop the momentum you need. On a cat rigged boat, such as the single sail Laser, the mast is farther forward and part of the mainsail is now in position to help push the bow around.... not so on a sloop rig like yours. Trying to "backwind" the main will not work.. the main will constantly try to turn the boat into the wind... no matter which side it's on.

If you've got this far through this post .... then you're a real trouper... I encourage you to hoist both sails next time and get after it... good luck....enjoy
All understood and do already sail a Mac 26x somim familiar with slow handling boats. On the Mac the admiral is fine with her duties. The boat stays flat. On the 170 it heels a bit and she is not ready for that and loses what she is to do. mainly she has only manned the the jib a couple times over a few years. So with the swirling winds of his location, lieteraaly two flags on shore going complete opposite directions! It was getting intense not relaxing. So I furled the jib to simplify.

I too thought the main back winded not help it come through. Thank you for the verification on that point.

It just more practice and time. Just wondered about the sheet on the end.
 
Jun 18, 2016
26
Macgregor 26X Petoskey
Also part of the issue was if we both sat on the windward side of the boat. Even with the jib flying we heeled to windward. Which I didn’t like so we stayed on opposite sides. I out weigh her so at times we had to switch at times we did not..
thank you for the order so plainly stated of tacking and allowingnthe jib to back fill before releasing it to complete the tack. I printed that out for us both.

Great forum and so happy you all,share your,knowledge, experience and love of sailing with us newbies.
 
Last edited:
Oct 19, 2017
7,733
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
I just realized how the term 'backwinded' sounds. It's a misnomer. To clarify, I'm talking about bringing the boom up past the centerline, not actually reversing the billow of the sail's camber by pushing the boom outboard.

-Will (Dragonfly)
 
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Jun 18, 2016
26
Macgregor 26X Petoskey
  • First mate probably isnt as bitten by sailing as the helmsman. My first mate has no idea how to trim the jib other than make sure it does not flap like a flag.
The 170 actually sails politely with just the main. It wont sail fast though. I went the first year hardly ever using jib. After the next year my sons and i got more confident to where we start with just the main and then raise jib as the jitters of the boat ramp and excitement of getting on the water settle down. If i go by myself its still just the main and wind is under 10 kt. With familiy along we have an arbitrary rule that if we cant handle jib its time to head home. Jib will double 170 speed and can get you on plane and actually help point up wind. More speed, better pointing, its worth getting confident with it.

Original poster is probably pinching upwind. Fall off the wind like other posters say. You absolutely need water running to tack. You can tack in place without moving, but you need to induce massive heel to do it the jib makes this even easier.

I also mess with rc boats. In a strong puff the sailboat will heel over more than 45 degrees and immediately round up. Usually, it will do a full tack, then sail all on its own in a perfect pinch upwind. It cant turn back off the wind until the wind slackens. The extreme heel ruins rudder control so im screwed. The way out is to flick tbe rudder. The rudder at extreme heel is mostly just slowing the boat down. If you use too much rudder when pinned in an upwind tack its almost like heaving to. By flicking the rudder you allow speed to build.
We had a few legs where we were doing quite well with jib. It is definitely the accelerator. We had fun. I only had to apologize to the admiral once! Lol. Really she is doing great and has taken to it, which is great too. I am a very lucky man!
 
Jun 18, 2016
26
Macgregor 26X Petoskey
I just realized how the term 'backwinded' sounds. It's a misnomer. To clarify, I'm talking about bringing the boom up past the centerline, not actually reversing the billow of the sail's camber by pushing the boom outboard.

-Will (Dragonfly)
Gotcha! Thanks
 
Apr 7, 2016
184
Beneteau First 305 Seward, Alaska
Also part of the issue was if we both sat on the windward side of the boat. Even with the jib flying we heeled to windward.
When my wife was first getting into it we had the same type issues. It was a good example of a saggy main and newer jib. We ended up just reefing the main and our boat leveled out. Hadn’t had a problem since. Give that a try next time. The boat really does stabilize better with both sails up.
 
Jun 18, 2016
26
Macgregor 26X Petoskey
Unfortunately I do not have reef points in main so all or nothing with that.

It’s on the list, or mayyyybeeee a new main with two sets of reef points!