tried to ruin my day

Scott T-Bird

Scott T-Bird

.
Oct 26, 2008
6,079
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Justin, with all due respect, it does sound like you are still squeezing your first nickel! Expensive on a boat usually starts with at least 3 zeros, maybe more depending on your tastes. Less than 3 zeros is just a blip and a sigh of relief ... geez! ;);)
 
Justin_NSA

Justin_NSA

.
Jul 7, 2004
8,402
Hunter 30T Cheney, KS
Scott T-Bird said:
Justin, with all due respect, it does sound like you are still squeezing your first nickel! Expensive on a boat usually starts with at least 3 zeros, maybe more depending on your tastes. Less than 3 zeros is just a blip and a sigh of relief ... geez! ;);)
Click to expand
It's not the money so much as I don't know what would cause 2 starters to break the same way. My confidence level is not to the level I feel that it won't happen again. I'm sure if I wasn't doing the work myself the project would have more zeros behind it.
 
Scott T-Bird

Scott T-Bird

.
Oct 26, 2008
6,079
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
It sounds like your confidence was shaken by attempting to save money on a cheap product! Understandably, you are worried about what consequential damage you caused by installing an inferior starter, but that shouldn't shake you up when replacing with a proven product, even if it does cost more. I guess my philosophy is different, but I dismiss just about anything that is the lowest price.
BTW, I agree with MS about warranties. I've never bought anything based on a warranty and I never even pay attention to what it is, much less compare it with others. I figure that if I need a warranty, there has to be something wrong! Why would you care if the starter has a 6-month or 12-month warranty? If doesn't last 20 years, why would you want the damn thing?!

What I really hate is when the seller wants you to buy an extended warranty for anything. That seems to happen at the car dealerships all the time now. I'm sick of making an agreement on the price of a car and then when you get to the finance department, they want to sell you extended warranties. The last time around, I spent several hours haggling the price for a new car and when I finally agreed and was ushered into the finance guy to sign all the papers, I told him "if you even try to sell me an extended warranty, I'm going to walk out". Sure enough, he started to tell me why I should buy an extended warranty. I had to go to a different dealer to buy the car.
 
  • Like
Likes: Ward H
jssailem

jssailem

.
Oct 22, 2014
21,104
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
Sorry to hear the bad news. At least it happened where you can pull out. Not at the far end of a lake. Might want to check the Damper plate while you have the transmission out.
That one is on my "Oh poo - I have to do that sometime" list of projects.
 
Justin_NSA

Justin_NSA

.
Jul 7, 2004
8,402
Hunter 30T Cheney, KS
My confidence was shaken because I don't know what caused it. There may be consequential damage but it doesn't verify what happened. The simple explanation is cheap parts, that was my first reaction. But that's just an assumption since I don't even know the source of the first part, or why the original had to be replaced. Why did two, possibly three, separately sourced parts break the same way? The bearing is wallowed out, what caused that? The ring is being replaced not just because there is some slight damage but also because it may have been the cause, not the result. The flywheel will get inspected too. And someone proposed timing. That will also get checked.

So no sense in theorizing any longer. Time to tear it down and inspect. Then buy new parts.

Somewhere, years ago I read that Charles Rolls believed in the quality of his cars so much that he originally wanted to offer a lifetime warranty. His accountants talked him out of it.
 
kloudie1

kloudie1

.
Nov 6, 2006
9,893
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
A friend schooled in failure investigation could look at the crack faces and point ya to a bad casting or a stress overload.. If ya know a mech engineer or metallurgist in the oil or aircraft industry, ya might be able to find someone who can analyze it for ya .. might cost ya some good scotch..??
 
Justin_NSA

Justin_NSA

.
Jul 7, 2004
8,402
Hunter 30T Cheney, KS
kloudie1 said:
A friend schooled in failure investigation could look at the crack faces and point ya to a bad casting or a stress overload.. If ya know a mech engineer or metallurgist in the oil or aircraft industry, ya might be able to find someone who can analyze it for ya .. might cost ya some good scotch..??
Click to expand
My slip neighbor is a chemical engineer. Right away he looked for carbon by eyeballing it and didn't see any. We IT geeks don't meet many people with lab access :biggrin:
 
jibes138

jibes138

.
Jan 27, 2008
3,045
ODay 35 Beaufort, NC
Justin, most ring gears are not "pressed" onto the flywheel. They use an induction heater to heat the ring gear which thermally expands and is then "shrunk" fit onto the flywheel. I worked in a factory that did this on outboard motor flywheels in my youth so am familiar with the process. Consider machining off the ring gear or cutting a slot to allow you to pry it off by expanding the diameter with a pry bar. That induction heater would get the ring gear red hot in about 5 seconds so you will need some means of heating the ring gear hotter than a typical household oven will get. Measure both parts and using .000006 per degree F per inch of diameter see what temperature above room temperature will get you a slip fit with some room to spare, probably .003 to .005 clearance will give you some wiggle room to get it on before it cools too much. Having it seize up halfway on will not be good so err on the high side of clearance. Too hot might effect the metallurgy, not knowing what the ring is made from or if the teeth are case hardened be careful.
 
jibes138

jibes138

.
Jan 27, 2008
3,045
ODay 35 Beaufort, NC
Another thought. I also worked in a gear manufacturing facility and am familiar with precision gears. If the ring gear is not concentric to the center of rotation of your motor it can cause the gears to "clash" and will look like the damage you are describing. As the gear rotates on one side the fit between the mating gears will be too loose and on the other side there won't be enough clearance for the teeth to fit together. This will put a big side load on your starter. Not having special measuring equipment you should see if the diameter on the flywheel where the ring gear fits runs concentric to the engine shaft axis. To check it with the ring gear still on put wires in the gear teeth and check the runout over the wires. The starter gear could also be machined wrong so it has the runout and is causing the "clash." Check that first as given the price that starter had to be made for about 25 bucks to sell it retail for 100 bucks, So it probably has a 5 dollar gear in it, I doubt it is very precise.
 
RoyS

RoyS

.
Jun 3, 2012
1,742
Hunter 33 Steamboat Wharf, Hull, MA
Sounds like the right plan but too difficult to do with the engine still on the boat. You will also need to find someone with the right equipment and experience to install the ring gear based on Jibes138's post. I recommend that when you have reassembled the motor and transmission that you first crank the engine with the decompression lever engaged while listening for any unusual sounds indicating binding or misalignment. Good luck.
 
Justin_NSA

Justin_NSA

.
Jul 7, 2004
8,402
Hunter 30T Cheney, KS
You guys are making me hope and pray it is only a cheap starter problem. I will check as much as I can when everything is out. I have good access to the trans housing.
 
Last edited:
JRacer

JRacer

.
Aug 9, 2011
1,333
Beneteau 310 Cheney KS (Wichita)
Justin_NSA said:
You guy are making hope and pray it is only a cheap starter problem. I will check as much as I can when everything is out. I have good access to the trans housing.
Click to expand
Let's hope that is the case! Because you have to separate the tranny from the motor anyway, you should be able to get a good look at the flywheel and ring gear before resorting to any more involved procedures. Might be worth locating a qualified engine/tranny guy to look it over once you have it apart. Wonder if Doug knows anybody? I can't think of anybody in the club off hand but will keep thinking on it.
 
Justin_NSA

Justin_NSA

.
Jul 7, 2004
8,402
Hunter 30T Cheney, KS
JRacer said:
Let's hope that is the case! Because you have to separate the tranny from the motor anyway, you should be able to get a good look at the flywheel and ring gear before resorting to any more involved procedures. Might be worth locating a qualified engine/tranny guy to look it over once you have it apart. Wonder if Doug knows anybody? I can't think of anybody in the club off hand but will keep thinking on it.
Click to expand
I saw Doug last night as i was stripping my canvas off. He was just as puzzled as me about the carnage. I told him i was replacing the teeth ring. He offered to help if he could. Great guy.
 
Justin_NSA

Justin_NSA

.
Jul 7, 2004
8,402
Hunter 30T Cheney, KS
jssailem said:
@Justin_NSA
I wonder if these guys can do it.. They say they are the best. Maybe it would be worth a test?
Chance Transmissions: Transmission Repair | Wichita, KS
https://chancetrans.com/
We've got the most advanced diagnostic equipment in the industry to guarantee quality transmission repair with the the best warranty in the business.​
Click to expand
Chance has a very good rep in town. I should take it there if they aren't too backlogged. I was considering them for my 4L60E rebuild in my Suburban. The rebuild costs as much as the truck is worth. I like the truck though.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Top Bottom