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Transmision replacememt

Discussion in 'Catalina 30' started by hvbaker, Dec 2, 2014. Add this thread to a FAQ

  1. hvbaker

    hvbaker

    Joined Oct 5, 2010
    322 posts, 5 likes
    Catalina 30 mkII
    US St. Augustine
    I have a M 25 XPB with a Hurth HBW-50 transmission. The transmission need to be replaced and the don't make the HBW-50 any longer. I have been told that the Hurth ZF 10 M will bolt up and is similar to the HBW-100 which is a little more robust. The only difference is the the ZF 10 M is about an inch longer than the HBW-50. Has anyone made such a replacement, and were there any special problems.
     


  2. mortyd

    mortyd

    Joined Dec 11, 2004
    937 posts, 12 likes
    Catalina 30
    US easy living
    have you considered calling hurth?
     


  3. Donnybrook

    Donnybrook

    Joined Apr 2, 2011
    185 posts, 4 likes
    Catalina 27
    US Niceville, FL
    A Hurth ZF 6 M might be a better choice, if the same size as the old one. A ZF10 is going to make stuffing box access really tight. Either way, stay with the same gear ratio unless you want to change the prop.
     


  4. hvbaker

    hvbaker

    Joined Oct 5, 2010
    322 posts, 5 likes
    Catalina 30 mkII
    US St. Augustine
    Hurth no longer in business bought by ZF. Have spoken to ZF representatives. Transmission will bolt up that's not the issue gear ratios the same. My question was specific to the Catalina 30 it's engine room and if anyone with a Catalina 30 had a M25xpb with a ZF 10.
     


  5. RichH

    RichH

    Joined Feb 14, 2005
    4,775 posts, 12 likes
    Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS
    US Worton Creek, MD
    Have you considered to have your current transmission rebuilt?
     


  6. hvbaker

    hvbaker

    Joined Oct 5, 2010
    322 posts, 5 likes
    Catalina 30 mkII
    US St. Augustine
    Yes, did consider rebuild. Price is about the same as new even with upgrade to more robust gearbox.
     


  7. The Garbone

    The Garbone

    Joined Nov 7, 2012
    673 posts, 16 likes
    1978 Catalina 30
    US Wilbur-by-the-Sea
    I may have said transmission in my garage. I bought it to go on my W13 but could never locate a flex plate and bell house so scrapped the idea. I née to take a look, think mine is a 1.5:1
     


  8. The Garbone

    The Garbone

    Joined Nov 7, 2012
    673 posts, 16 likes
    1978 Catalina 30
    US Wilbur-by-the-Sea
    Here is what I have. It currently has no fluid in it. The folks I Boatguy it from stated it was taken from a boat that had need rebuilt in NC and driven down here to Florida. The owner fell in and something when wrong resulting in the motor getting water locked. New owner replaced the entire kit and they got the trans with very low hours.

    That is what I was told, if true who knows.
     

    Attached Files:



  9. hvbaker

    hvbaker

    Joined Oct 5, 2010
    322 posts, 5 likes
    Catalina 30 mkII
    US St. Augustine
    Thanks. You have the HBW 10-2R which would correspond to the HBW150 or the ZF 12 M. I think I'll go with the ZF 10 M which was recommended by ZF distributor for the M25XPB. Again my question had to do with the engine room.
     


  10. George Da Porge

    George Da Porge

    Joined Nov 15, 2014
    126 posts, 1 likes
    Catalina 30T
    US Green Bay
    I had to replace my blown Hurth tranny at the beginning of the season. It was replaced with a ZF 6M. Engine is Universal M25XP.
     


  11. hvbaker

    hvbaker

    Joined Oct 5, 2010
    322 posts, 5 likes
    Catalina 30 mkII
    US St. Augustine
    Thanks. That's what I wanted to know. The gearbox on the ZF 6 and 10 have the same dimensions. George from your post I take it you did not run into any special problems in the replacement.
     


  12. mortyd

    mortyd

    Joined Dec 11, 2004
    937 posts, 12 likes
    Catalina 30
    US easy living
    if you do change to a zf i suggest you check to see if this transmission, like the hurth, should be in reverse, which was the only positive gear on the hurth, so the faces don't get polished by a turning prop while sailing.
     


  13. hvbaker

    hvbaker

    Joined Oct 5, 2010
    322 posts, 5 likes
    Catalina 30 mkII
    US St. Augustine
    Yes, in neutral or reverse when sailing.
     


  14. mortyd

    mortyd

    Joined Dec 11, 2004
    937 posts, 12 likes
    Catalina 30
    US easy living
    NO, absolutely not in neutral. in neutral the faces spin against each other and will eventually polish themselves into uselessness. i got this directly from hurth. SAIL IN REVERSE if you have a hurth transmission.
     


  15. hvbaker

    hvbaker

    Joined Oct 5, 2010
    322 posts, 5 likes
    Catalina 30 mkII
    US St. Augustine

    image-3014391699.jpg

    Mortyd - your information is contrary to information in the manufacture's manual. I have attached the section that supports my statement. It is always good to read the manual for one's self so that one can have actuate information.
     


  16. George Da Porge

    George Da Porge

    Joined Nov 15, 2014
    126 posts, 1 likes
    Catalina 30T
    US Green Bay
    The mechanic who did the work did a nice job. No issues. We weren't sure if the issue was an engine or tranny issue so we pulled the engine and tranny. Boom worked good as a support for the chain fall. 6M is about 2" longer than old tranny but that was no issue.

    The biggest hassle with taking out the engine was removing the cabinet above it. The stove was put in after all the cabinets. So a short slot was cut in the cabinet for the stove's face flange. I ended up trimming the counter top in order to pull out the cabinet.

    Also - as previously mentioned, when sailing the transmission must be in REVERSE.
     


  17. hvbaker

    hvbaker

    Joined Oct 5, 2010
    322 posts, 5 likes
    Catalina 30 mkII
    US St. Augustine
    Another source:

    image-2212166630.jpg
     


  18. mortyd

    mortyd

    Joined Dec 11, 2004
    937 posts, 12 likes
    Catalina 30
    US easy living
    thanks for your correction. i agree that printed information in the manual supercedes verbal information given to me by an somebody on the phone at hurth. i no longer need to sail in reverse or worry about it. thanks again.
     


  19. jrowan

    jrowan

    Joined Mar 5, 2011
    1,291 posts, 3 likes
    Catalina 30
    US N/A
    Thanks for clarifying this with actual written proof, not somebody's here say.
    This misinformation about putting your transmission in reverse while sailing has been going around this site for too long. It was disproven last time it came up, but it's good to clarify once again.
    Putting the engine in reverse will cause more strain to the gears as they will be fighting the great hydrodynamic counter force of water over the prop.
    The whole point of neutral is to not let the gears engage, so why would it cause wear?
    But the real problem of sailing in reverse is that if you have to start the engine in an emergency, you may forget to throw the trans. in neutral first, which will cause huge strain to the engine while starting, & will likely cause it to stall out.

    As far as the replacement transmission if the cost is not much difference I would buy a new ZF, but it's surprising that its not substantially cheaper to rebuild what you have vs. buying new.
     


  20. mortyd

    mortyd

    Joined Dec 11, 2004
    937 posts, 12 likes
    Catalina 30
    US easy living
    the original, and now wrong, information i got from somebody at hurth was that the faces rubbed and eventually polished and reverse, which is a positive gear, did not. since that made sense, and the owners manual updates had stories about polished faces, i believed until i saw a printed manual. coming from an aviation background i am constantly re-startled how much misinformation is around in the sailing community.
     



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