Trailering a Hunter 23 - negative tongue weight?
- Thread starter jBlaze3000
- Start date
How can you have negative tongue weight and be standing in the cockpit with that trailer disconnected from the truck?
Unless you have a stand holding the back of the trailer that boat's bow should be pointing to the sky.
Unless you have a stand holding the back of the trailer that boat's bow should be pointing to the sky.
What model of 250 do you have Chief? If it's the water ballast it looks like centreboard/keel construction might be similar to the h260. I.e. Foam and weighs a hundred or so pounds. Other versions would likely be more robust.
You can adjust the tongue weight by raising or lowering the hitch ball. Balancing a trailer may entail moving the wheels axle forward or backwards. The tongue weight should be around 12% of the weight of the boat + trailer with the rails sitting parallel to a level road surface. A trailer balanced to carry a load may not be balanced when empty but negative tongue weight is not in any way normal. if your trailer vehicle is an SUV with a high hitch receiver you will need a drop ball to regain positive tongue weight. Just seen the picture, yes the boat is sitting to far back in the trailer. The winch is not to winch the boat up the trailer like you would do for a powerboat it is merely to guide the boat into its forward most position as you float it into the trailer. The U-Bolt at bow does not usually have backing plate and could be easily pulled through if excessive pressure is applied. That is the reason we like steep ramps as the bow can be easily pulled to its stop before the boards contact the hull.
Lose the motor and pull the boat up more on the trailer.. Manual states that you should have roughly 225lbs at the hitch. Move stuff forward in the cabin if needed.
I would also suggest not using the winch strap to pull the boat forward when out of the water. Most of the weight will be sitting on the keel board, not the side bunks. Doing so can result in excessive strain on the eye and.. whoops.. you already found out
Cheers,
Brad
I would also suggest not using the winch strap to pull the boat forward when out of the water. Most of the weight will be sitting on the keel board, not the side bunks. Doing so can result in excessive strain on the eye and.. whoops.. you already found out
Cheers,
Brad
We found when retrieving our 23 that getting the trailer in the water just right was pretty critical . Before backing down the ramp I would empty a bottle of dish soap on the bunks and the carpeted area the keel rests on . With the boat floating we would snug up the winch strap . When we pulled out out of the water it would sort of settle back . Usually after dropping the mast we would drive across the parking lot a few times and tap the brakes . This usually got the boat up snug . Then after a few miles on the road we would stop and check things to make sure everything was where it should be . There was also a product called liquid rollers that we used on the carpeted areas of the trailer . I think it came from west marine . Hope some of this helps ,
Took a quick look tonight and found I was able to adjust the vertical piece with the bow stops back about 3 inches. That's as far as she would go. Making progress though...
Taking a second look at the original photo I posted...that setup looks pretty ridiculous...haha. Oh well, at least I can recognize that now.
Thanks for all the replies so far.
Thanks for all the replies so far.
Great responses so far. I use Liquid Rollers myself all the time. You do have to be careful because sometimes it is too slick. Our boat seems to shift around on the bunks fore and aft sometimes when travelling. One of the things I have on my project list is installing a much larger bow eye with a very large backing plate. It would require filling a hole as the new bow eye would have a larger hole spread. How long is the backer on yours now? Judging by the way it has started to pulled through the backer might only be about as long as the spread on the bow eye.
For those who asked: when she is on her trailer with mast up its 42' to the top of mast. My boat is a wing keel, at about 5000 lbs. She is a big girl for a 26' 11" hull!
Chief
Chief
Chief - looks like you carry 1/4 of your weight in your keel and likely the majority of the boats weight on it, so you should be safe to pull a bit on the keel.
The person in the thread referenced by Kermit was suggesting that the strap be used to pretension the keel allowing things to move forward easier when brakes were applied. I would definitely go slow and gentle!
The last few inches of the loading process always has me a little nervous as to what could go wrong! Whether tapping the brakes or winching things up!
The person in the thread referenced by Kermit was suggesting that the strap be used to pretension the keel allowing things to move forward easier when brakes were applied. I would definitely go slow and gentle!
The last few inches of the loading process always has me a little nervous as to what could go wrong! Whether tapping the brakes or winching things up!
I will chime in folks.
With a fixed keel boat, it is of course harder to launch and retrieve than boats sitting lower on the trailer due to swing keel or water ballast. With a single axle fixed keel boat, the center of gravity is raised up higher; thus, the experience of swinging sideways more. Of course this can be made more serious if the tongue weight is negative as most professionals will tell you that there should be 10% of the towing weight (trailer, boat, motor and equipment) should be on the hitch for safety.
The first thing suggested is to repair the bow eyebolt as it has come loose. You can get to that by removing the front panel in the V berth but I will tell you it is probably in tight. From there you can see what type of backing plate the eyebolt is attached to. If not long enough, add another to distribute the load and make sure you tighten the nuts and if no locking washers, add them of course stainless steel style.
The next suggestion is to have the boat as forward in the bow chocks as possible and this can be done on flat land with mast down by pulling forward and gently braking every time tightening up the winch strap. Once this is done, I would then see if negative buoyancy or not. You want to achieve for safety issues 10% of the weight of the entire load being pulled on the hitch. To achieve this there are several things you can do.
1. Store all gear forward in the V Berth.
2. Remove motor from boat and either store forward or in the tow vehicle to get additional weight off the rear of the boat.
3. Move the winch stand further forward
4. Move the rear axle backwards
5. Combination of the two or more above.
You hit it on the nailhead at 55 mph with negative buoyancy or near it particularly with a fixed keel boat with the center of gravity much higher will cause the trailer to sway and possibly you could loose it. I assume you have no brakes on the trailer or they are not working. The first most would do in a swaying situation is to brake. That sir would be disastorous and not only could you loose the boat and trailer but the car as well not to mention the injuries or in one case which I came up on one such accident, a father in grief over the loss of his daughter's death. IF SWAYING OCCURS, YOU HAVE TO ACCELERTE TO PULL OUT OF THE SWAYING MOTION TO GET THE TOW VEHICLE AND TRAILER UNDER CONTROL. THEN SLOWY BRAKE SLOWLY. ALSO, GIVE YOURSELF MORE ROOM BETWEEN VEHICLES AND DRIVE AS IF ON SNOW AND ICE.
As for brakes, if you have them, get them repaired. If no brakes, you can add brakes on that axle as I did it when I was a dealer. However, you will need to see if the axle has deteriorated over time and if so, just buy a new axle with brakes added. I have known of others adding a second axle too to help stop the swaying and to distribute the weight better.
As for putting a line or strap behind the keel to pull the boat further forward, well, I have repaired a keel or two in my time due to that. The worst is having to take the keel off and rebed with 5200 and then applying new gel coat and epoxy and anti fouling bottom paints. Like I said the key is gently braking to move the boat forward and each time tightening the winch strap with the mast down.
The extended tongue on that trailer originally supplied was not long enough to launch with. There are many tricks to launching but with the correct weight on the hitch, I use to supply an elongated tongue hitch and would chock the wheels with the safety chains still attached, I would then raise the trailer hitch up to detach from the tow vehicle and pull away again assuming you have the correct safety hitch weight of the towed unit on the hitch.
There are additional things you can do the the trailer bunk boards and keel tray to assit the boat being launched easier but this is a little too long and my hands are beginning to hurt.
This information is being supplied from knowledge and experience as a former hunter dealer who was the top seller for the Hunter 23 wing keel.
With a fixed keel boat, it is of course harder to launch and retrieve than boats sitting lower on the trailer due to swing keel or water ballast. With a single axle fixed keel boat, the center of gravity is raised up higher; thus, the experience of swinging sideways more. Of course this can be made more serious if the tongue weight is negative as most professionals will tell you that there should be 10% of the towing weight (trailer, boat, motor and equipment) should be on the hitch for safety.
The first thing suggested is to repair the bow eyebolt as it has come loose. You can get to that by removing the front panel in the V berth but I will tell you it is probably in tight. From there you can see what type of backing plate the eyebolt is attached to. If not long enough, add another to distribute the load and make sure you tighten the nuts and if no locking washers, add them of course stainless steel style.
The next suggestion is to have the boat as forward in the bow chocks as possible and this can be done on flat land with mast down by pulling forward and gently braking every time tightening up the winch strap. Once this is done, I would then see if negative buoyancy or not. You want to achieve for safety issues 10% of the weight of the entire load being pulled on the hitch. To achieve this there are several things you can do.
1. Store all gear forward in the V Berth.
2. Remove motor from boat and either store forward or in the tow vehicle to get additional weight off the rear of the boat.
3. Move the winch stand further forward
4. Move the rear axle backwards
5. Combination of the two or more above.
You hit it on the nailhead at 55 mph with negative buoyancy or near it particularly with a fixed keel boat with the center of gravity much higher will cause the trailer to sway and possibly you could loose it. I assume you have no brakes on the trailer or they are not working. The first most would do in a swaying situation is to brake. That sir would be disastorous and not only could you loose the boat and trailer but the car as well not to mention the injuries or in one case which I came up on one such accident, a father in grief over the loss of his daughter's death. IF SWAYING OCCURS, YOU HAVE TO ACCELERTE TO PULL OUT OF THE SWAYING MOTION TO GET THE TOW VEHICLE AND TRAILER UNDER CONTROL. THEN SLOWY BRAKE SLOWLY. ALSO, GIVE YOURSELF MORE ROOM BETWEEN VEHICLES AND DRIVE AS IF ON SNOW AND ICE.
As for brakes, if you have them, get them repaired. If no brakes, you can add brakes on that axle as I did it when I was a dealer. However, you will need to see if the axle has deteriorated over time and if so, just buy a new axle with brakes added. I have known of others adding a second axle too to help stop the swaying and to distribute the weight better.
As for putting a line or strap behind the keel to pull the boat further forward, well, I have repaired a keel or two in my time due to that. The worst is having to take the keel off and rebed with 5200 and then applying new gel coat and epoxy and anti fouling bottom paints. Like I said the key is gently braking to move the boat forward and each time tightening the winch strap with the mast down.
The extended tongue on that trailer originally supplied was not long enough to launch with. There are many tricks to launching but with the correct weight on the hitch, I use to supply an elongated tongue hitch and would chock the wheels with the safety chains still attached, I would then raise the trailer hitch up to detach from the tow vehicle and pull away again assuming you have the correct safety hitch weight of the towed unit on the hitch.
There are additional things you can do the the trailer bunk boards and keel tray to assit the boat being launched easier but this is a little too long and my hands are beginning to hurt.
This information is being supplied from knowledge and experience as a former hunter dealer who was the top seller for the Hunter 23 wing keel.
Negative tongue weight on the ramp can be a nightmare! Once while pulling up a shallow wet ramp, I was not getting enough traction. Also, I could not float the boat far enough forward on the trailer. I got about half way up the ramp and couldn't get enough traction to keep going forward. I stopped my van, put it in park, set my parking brake and got out to assess the situation. As I was walking around the front of my van, I saw my whole van skidding backward toward the water! Luckily, I had a dock line in my hands. I quickly looped the line around my front bumper and a nearby piling, just as the van's rear tires skidded into the water! Two lessons: (1) never allow negative tongue weight on a tow vehicle (2) don't launch your boat if it will not float off the trailer, because retrieving that boat later will not allow you float it fully back onto the trailer (see item 1 above). BrianW
Brian is correct. Been there and done it which is unsafe. My advice is based on experience and knowledge
Dave, thanks for the response above. I already have the bow eye removed and will try to post some pictures of the backing plate this evening.
As for the trailer - in my original picture the boat was not pulled all the way up to the bow stops and my hitch was too high. I filipped my ball around which now makes the trailer level, and I was able to slide my "winch post" back about 3 inches which should give me some more leverage. No doubt that if I still have negative tongue weight, removing the 9.9 on the back will take care of the rest.
As for brakes, the trailer has surge brakes but the pipe nipple that connects the reservoir to the rubber hose has sheared off. Should be easy enough to get the sheared piece of pipe off, replace it, then fill the reservoir with fluid...but my guess is that will just expose the issues with the brakes that hadn't been used in years. Maybe I'll get lucky and they'll work great but I have a feeling there will be another thread coming on that one...
Are you saying that even with surge brakes you do not want to slow down to stop a swaying trailer?
My 2 cents:
-Definitely fix the brakes to their fullest potential
-Never trailer with negative tongue weight.
-Store the motor while trailering.
-Float the boat onto the trailer with the assistance of the winch, as opposed to cranking hard on the winch. Takes some practice, but it works
-The roller just aft of the bow area is a guide only. I'm told it doesn't support the hull and I tend to believe that.
-Definitely fix the brakes to their fullest potential
-Never trailer with negative tongue weight.
-Store the motor while trailering.
-Float the boat onto the trailer with the assistance of the winch, as opposed to cranking hard on the winch. Takes some practice, but it works
-The roller just aft of the bow area is a guide only. I'm told it doesn't support the hull and I tend to believe that.