Too much lee helm H260

[Chuck C.]

Took my new to me '05 out last summer on the Shuswap Marine Park (BC) for it maiden 10 day camping trip. Learnt a few lessons throughout the trip (like make sure the furling line is in the boat when motoring in a tight spot and keep the centreboard up when at anchor) but overall it was a great trip and was happy with the purchase. The one major issue that has me concerned happened when the boat would not come about in a 10 kt wind. With the rudder hard over on a close hauled port tack, the boat would not turn through the wind. I suspect the standing rigging is not tuned correctly but any thoughs or advice on the subject would be appreciated?

 

[Daddio417]

As a former owner of the same vessel, this is a bit of a puzzle. First two suggestions would be to ensure your keel is not failing to fully drop vertical and check the position of your rudder. It may not be vertical enough to provide adequate steerage.

 

[BlowMeAway]

Hi Chuck, welcome to the forum. Two quick questions about the port tack...was the starboard jib sheet released early enough such the boat did not hove to when you turned into the wind? Were you carrying enough momentum to drive through the wind?

 

[rgranger]

I have a relatively new-2-me H26 but I was having weather helm issues with mine. I had to get a new main to fix the problem. You say you have lee helm but let me ask the obvious question,... does your boat try to turn away from the wind when on a reach? If so that is also a problem. And you might have a blown head sail that is creating too much drag and not enough lift. Can you sail well on a reach on main alone? On Jib alone? Those two experiments will tell you a lot about your boats rig and sail balance. My first low confidence guess is that you will find that your lee helm gets very drastic on jib alone. That would indicate a blown jib and time to plunk down some money.

 

[jeepbluetj]

I would think (not owning one, nor sailing one) that a fractional rig would be far more prone to weather helm than lee helm. Previous posters are likely right - CB all the way down? Rudder all the way to the vertical position? If so, I'd guess even with a horribly blown out jib you should still be able to tack if the main was trimmed even close to the ballpark.

Really, with any decent way on any fin keeled/cb boat should be able to spin around pretty smartly even with the jib backwinded.

 

[Kermit]

What size is your head sail? Crap, even with an asymmetrical spinnaker I don’t get lee helm. Something is wrong, wrong, wrong! Maybe @Crazy Dave Condon will have thoughts for you v

 

[Chuck C.]

Hi Chuck, welcome to the forum. Two quick questions about the port tack...was the starboard jib sheet released early enough such the boat did not hove to when you turned into the wind? Were you carrying enough momentum to drive through the wind?

I usually wait until the jib starts to luff before I release the jib sheet on a up wind tack but even with sheet released and the jib flaying away, she wouldn't come about. I was carrying tons of momentum.

 

[Chuck C.]

I have a relatively new-2-me H26 but I was having weather helm issues with mine. I had to get a new main to fix the problem. You say you have lee helm but let me ask the obvious question,... does your boat try to turn away from the wind when on a reach? If so that is also a problem. And you might have a blown head sail that is creating too much drag and not enough lift. Can you sail well on a reach on main alone? On Jib alone? Those two experiments will tell you a lot about your boats rig and sail balance. My first low confidence guess is that you will find that your lee helm gets very drastic on jib alone. That would indicate a blown jib and time to plunk down some money.

Interesting you mentioned the condition of the mainsail and lack of lift. I lost a battens on the same day (blew out of the sleeve and over the side) no doubt a contibuting factor. On a close or beam reach she sails mostly in the grove with only slight windward helm needed to keep it straight. Thanks I'll definitely get the battens sorted out before the next trip and try sailing with main and jibs alone.

 

[Chuck C.]

I would think (not owning one, nor sailing one) that a fractional rig would be far more prone to weather helm than lee helm. Previous posters are likely right - CB all the way down? Rudder all the way to the vertical position? If so, I'd guess even with a horribly blown out jib you should still be able to tack if the main was trimmed even close to the ballpark.

Really, with any decent way on any fin keeled/cb boat should be able to spin around pretty smartly even with the jib backwinded.

CB was all the way down when I left the anchor (heard the clunk and up haul rope was all out) Is it possible that the drag of the water is causing it to ride up underway? Rudder was all the way down but my hunch is that this boat doesn't have a long enough rudder and/or not enough sideways travel with the wheel steering cables and the outboard motor linkage system attached.

 

[Daddio417]

Sounds like the CB is in the correct position, the weight and drag keep it in position. I was concerned it might be jamming part way down which can happen but the line will have slack in it. If your rudder is not locked tightly down however, it will start to drift from the vertical at rest to a more horizontal position underway. I can assure you that with a tiller, little movement would bring the bow around no matter what the jib was doing.

 

[MaxinCalgary]

I have a H260 with wheel and motor attached with Ez steer rod
Will tack at 2-3 KTS below that may fall off.
It’s not the wind speed it’s the boat speed that matters.
In strong winds below 2kts hull speed you can get knocked back till the boat gets going.same as most sailboats.

 

[MaxinCalgary]

If your close hauled and have the jib set but let the main out too much you can find yourself running out of rudder to try and compensate for your powered jib and unpowered main.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

@Jackdaw
I am going to ask a learned scholar to advise in layman's terms as to what he thinks on this one. Many good responses so far that can attribute with center board down not all the way, an improper tune, rudder not secured down all the way, blown out main, sail contol and so on. However as Chuck C said he is new to this boat being a water ballast hull, could be sail control.

Jackdaw, would you please give us good wisdom on this from an expert such as you sir in layman's terms?. Gentlemen, if Jackdaw does chime in, listen to him.

Crazy Dave

 

[Jackdaw]

@Chuck C. , As long as your rudder is down your underwater appendages should not mess with your ability to tack. First of all, I'm going to assume you were trying to tack from closehauled to closehauled, and the boat was indeed closehauled when this starts. I'm also going to assume you have a JIB and not a oversized genoa going around your spreaders. Also, what was the true wind speed?

OK, this is how it SHOULD go. When closehauled, how was the helm? Ideally you should have slight weatherhelm, just 2-3 degrees. Jib trimmed tight, mainsheet in and boom on the centerline of the boat.

At this point, pushing the helm over (never move than 30-35 degrees) to tack should start to turn the boat into the wind and start the headsail luffing. Does this happen?

Then assume you release the jib as it starts to luff, and the boat SHOULD swing thru head to wind. No need to touch the main, or change the angle of the tiller. Does that happen?

Trim on the new side while the jib is still luffing saves having to winch. Stop the turn as you approach your new closehauled angle.

What part of this does not happen?

 

[Chuck C.]

Thanks for the reply. Yes close hauled trying to tack to the opposite close haul, approx. wind speed 10 to 12 knots, boat speed approx. 3.5 to 4.5 knots. Standard sized jib 110% or so. Clipping along nicely on a closed reach with the wheel 5 degrees to windward, bring her up to closed hauled to turn through and nothing, wheel all the way over and she won't come about. Ended up bearing off onto a run and then things really got interesting (but that's another subject).
The next day winds were lighter, 5 to 8 kts. Made sure the center board was down and the rudder tied off (down position). Put a reef in the main and furled in the jib in to a standing tri-sail. Set off on a close reach, boom in tight to the center, turn to wind, same thing! With enough speed I could just barely make it around (both tacks) but half the time I had to actually start the motor to get her to come about (motor is linked to the rudder). I've sailed dinghies for years so I know how to come around and what is supposed to happen. I think the center of force is too far forward and a possible cure is to rake the mast back further to aft, just not sure how big a difference it would make, I suspect its a combination of things; inefficient mainsail due to missing battens together with incorrect mainsail trim (dam wheel steering, can't access the main sheet), rudder not locked down tight enough (not sure if it can be pinned in the down position), maybe the vang isn't tight enough, incorrect rake on the mast? The sails seem to be in good shape save for the lack of battens.

 

[h2o_snow]

Chuck,
Interesting. Is this your first time sailing the boat or did the tacking problem just "pop" up?
I'm inclined to think a centerboard or rudder issue as the boat should come around given your hull speed. The 260 is main driven so blown sails could contribute but probably not as described. Stupid question but...was the topping lift loose?
JT

 

[Fred]

My habit is to allow the jib to back-wind for a second or two before releasing the jib sheet and hauling in on the opposite side. This helps to bring about the bow particularly in low wind/speed situations. Can't really say if this is an essential practice for the H26/260 because it is so ingrained in my tacking procedure. This was particularly effective when sailing catamarans (Prindle 16).

 

[BlowMeAway]

Hey Chuck, do you keep the outboard motor in the water when sailing? Just curious...not sure that this is a major contributor, but maybe has some cumulative effect.

 

[DayDreamer41]

How quickly did you, do you, "Helms Alee" I can understand if too slow you will scrub off all the speed and end up in irons.

 

[Daddio417]

I am not completely familiar with the mechanics of the steering system which I believe is an Edson pedestal. I am thinking you have a steering issue which could be cables, sheaves, sprocket. You can test the theory by trying the emergency tiller to gauge differences.