Things that go bump in the night.

Sep 20, 2014
1,320
Rob Legg RL24 Chain O'Lakes
WayneH, does "proper lookout" include under water sonar?

To me, it just seems insane that loads are not required to be secure. On land, if you loose your load, you are entirely responsible for it. Why should water be any different.

I can't see private salvage being viable. Once the container sits in the water, even for a short time, the contents are going to be destroyed. Salt water is pretty corrosive.
 
Aug 22, 2017
1,609
Hunter 26.5 West Palm Beach
...I assume it’s kind of like flying on IFR (instrument flight rules) through the clouds. You just hope there is no one that you encounter...
The difference with the airplane, is that once you are above 10,000 feet, you are past the range where birds fly & once you are past 15,000 feet, you are above the service ceiling of the little Cesnas & Pipers, so the chances of encountering someone, who is not on a flight plan with transponder, are extremely slim. If you are actually in the clouds, then there should be no VFR traffic in there with you anyway.

I think that the chances of hitting a semi-submerged object with an offshore boat are much greater than the chances of hitting something that you can't see with a plane.

I now wonder if it might be a good idea to mount a sonar transponder on the bow, facing forward & configure a depth monitoring alarm to go off when it reads something at less than 500 feet.
 

SG

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Feb 11, 2017
1,670
J/Boat J/160 Annapolis
I now wonder if it might be a good idea to mount a sonar transponder on the bow, facing forward & configure a depth monitoring alarm to go off when it reads something at less than 500 feet.
There are forward looking sonars. The issue is that unless the waters are very placid and your sailboat is very stabile, I think the effective angle along the surface really won’t pick up something reliably that’s floating only 14’ deep at any distance that will help?
 
Sep 23, 2009
1,475
O'Day 34-At Last Rock Hall, Md
Is there some reason that the CG doesn't require ships lash their loads down the way trucks are required to. I can't imagine the containers just stacked on a flatbed.
 

Gunni

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Mar 16, 2010
5,937
Beneteau 411 Oceanis Annapolis
Oh they lock down the containers, however the physics of attempting to motor through a hurricane nor’easter is a fools errand. That 1000 ft ship was undoubtably racked and tossed in a way that it was not designed for.
 
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Jan 1, 2006
7,040
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
I like the salvage idea but have to admit that the contents of the containers are probably ruined. Maybe the industry could be forced to pay a bounty on each container to make salvage profitable. I know nothing about admiralty law, or any other law, but it seems to me if the law doesn't fit the situation - in the words of the great sportscaster Warner Wolf - "Change the rule!"
 
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Sep 20, 2014
1,320
Rob Legg RL24 Chain O'Lakes
Admiralty law should not need to change. All you need is for local countries to state that if you use our port of entry, you better have your complete load.
Motoring through a hurricane nor’easter does not account for 10K per year average loss. Sure there is poor judgement and surprise storms, but that can't be the bulk of the problem.
 
Oct 22, 2014
20,995
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
We need some visual aides.
This ship hit a reek and lost it's cargo containers.
Check out the torsion of the hull on this ship in mild waves and quiet seas.
Watch the way these cars move on deck.
 
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WayneH

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Jan 22, 2008
1,039
Tartan 37 287 Pensacola, FL
WayneH, does "proper lookout" include under water sonar?

To me, it just seems insane that loads are not required to be secure. On land, if you loose your load, you are entirely responsible for it. Why should water be any different.

I can't see private salvage being viable. Once the container sits in the water, even for a short time, the contents are going to be destroyed. Salt water is pretty corrosive.
Dave,

My "thought" on this is HELL NO!!! Forward looking sonar may pick up an awash container but at what range does the sonar say HEY, There's a floating rock ahead? From a Practical Sailor article "• Spotting containers at sea: In flat, deep water, the sonar will pick up a surface iceberg or perhaps a log, but given the interference caused by surface waves, I would not rely on the device to spot a container at sea in rough water." This from one test bed. It does not mean that all FLS would fail to pick up a container.

Or will you be so intrigued watching the dolphins playing in your bow wake that you're wondering where they went when you plow into the container? I kinda did this once. Sailing my 21 footer in San Antonio Bay watching the dolphins playing alongside the cockpit. Low freeboard boat so we were getting dolphin spit in the face. Suddenly, the dolphins hooked a hard turn to port. Just as we started wondering WTF?, the rudder started dragging bottom. Oops, let's follow the dolphins back to the channel.
 

Gunni

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Mar 16, 2010
5,937
Beneteau 411 Oceanis Annapolis
USCG is reporting that Maersk has hired salvors to place lights and tracking beacons on the remaining floating containers. Maersk also says/promises/kinda/maybe that they have salvors under contract to use side-scan sonar to locate sunken containers. A 3 ton sulphuric acid tank remains loose off Ocracoke.
 
Oct 19, 2017
7,733
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
I just read that Sulfuric Acid has a specific gravity of 1.8 so the container should sink quickly. When it does and there is a breach in the Sulfuric Acid barrels, sounds like there likely will be a reaction to the seawater, possibly resulting in the formation of Hydrochloric acid and ultimately the release of Chlorine gas that would bubble to the surface, lots of Nitrogen and Oxygen and Hydrogen too. I wonder what happens to the sulfur? What if the shipping container was made of
Aluminium? I don't know if an electrical current needs to be present to cause any of this, but it sounds like the NaCl in H2O is enough. Apparently, some early electric submarines poisoned their crew when seawater found its way to the battery acid.
You certainly wouldn't want to be sitting on the surface when a big Chlorine gas bubble broke beneath you. I am not a chemist nor did I take Chemistry so I have no idea if I am interpreting what I am reading correctly. The good news is, it doesn't sound like it will remain Sulfuric Acid sloshing around under the waves for very long.

-Will (Dragonfly)
 

RussC

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Sep 11, 2015
1,578
Merit 22- Oregon lakes
The good news is, it doesn't sound like it will remain Sulfuric Acid sloshing around under the waves for very long.

-Will (Dragonfly)
I doubt that the local marine life will consider it good news in either case.
 
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Oct 25, 2011
576
Island Packet IP31 Lake St. Louis, Montreal
This video is a pretty graphic demonstration fo how ships flex in heavy weather. Well worth watching for the 3 minutes

Matt
 
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Feb 6, 2013
437
Hunter 31 Deale, MD
What about a hole in the bottom instead of a plug. I assume once it's overboard it can't be retrieved. The sooner it sinks, the better.
 

SG

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Feb 11, 2017
1,670
J/Boat J/160 Annapolis
What about a hole in the bottom instead of a plug. I assume once it's overboard it can't be retrieved. The sooner it sinks, the better.

First, goods within the container may be buoyant enough to keep the container floating like a soaked log (or dead head) just below the surface.

Secondly, the containers would need a hole in the "top" to allow air to escape and the container to fill -- assuming that the contents aren't sufficiently buoyant;

Thirdly, you really want your TV set, clothes, or other "essential" imports to arrive dry,, then they really try to keep them sealed :^))).

The number of containers that fall over is, percentage wise, tiny. The challenge is that there are so many and a small percentage is still a lot. Your chances of hitting one is "generally" remote (until, of course, you do :^))) ).

IF WE WANT SOMETHING TO FIXATE ON: The plastic debris that this permeating the Oceans (especially the Pacific) is actually much more troubling to me. It's in the process of affecting aquatic life, our food chain, and our ecosystems. Plastic, in water, doesn't just "go away".
 

Gunni

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Mar 16, 2010
5,937
Beneteau 411 Oceanis Annapolis
The last time a container came ashore on the Banks the damn thing was full of Doritos. When it broke open the beach was covered by plastic bags full of corn chips. Maersk needs to go get their stuff out of the ocean.
 
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capta

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Jun 4, 2009
4,766
Pearson 530 Admiralty Bay, Bequia SVG
Modern containers are supposed to have a plug, much like a freeze plug, that allows them to sink after a short period in the water. SUPPOSED TO HAVE being the operative words, I guess.
This article disputes the numbers posted above; "Despite the large number of containers shipped, accidents are relatively rare, with the best estimates saying a that less than 1,500 containers are lost from ships each year on average", but it's still a great article. http://gcaptain.com/the-worst-conta...n-photos/?mc_cid=7eb9f87165&mc_eid=3abd86d735
 

Gunni

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Mar 16, 2010
5,937
Beneteau 411 Oceanis Annapolis
Fantastic article Capta, thanks. Whatever the loss rate per year, these ridiculous vessels look like 20 pounds of stuff in a 5 pound bag. Like this one, seven years old in 2013, breaks in half and dumps 4,300 containers in the sea:
 
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capta

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Jun 4, 2009
4,766
Pearson 530 Admiralty Bay, Bequia SVG
Fantastic article Capta, thanks. Whatever the loss rate per year, these ridiculous vessels look like 20 pounds of stuff in a 5 pound bag. Like this one, seven years old in 2013, breaks in half and dumps 4,300 containers in the sea:
Like I keep saying, our little boats go up and over the waves, but the big fellas can break their back in the same conditions.
 
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