The things you don't remember you said

Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
During races I talk to other boats all the time, and usually don't remember much of it unless something 'happens'. After the race my crew was joking about my conversation with a barging boat at the start. Two boats were reaching in - one wisely tucked in behind us, but the other made a play for the line. I honestly didn't remember talking until I watched the vid. Apparently it got the point across, they bailed out and and did a 360 behind the RC boat to stay clear.

 
Last edited:
Nov 26, 2012
1,653
Hunter 34 Berkeley
Everyone seems so calm and polite. That is often not how it goes when a boat is barging. More like: "LEEWARD!!!! MOTHERF&%@&$R!!!"
 
Jan 2, 2017
765
O'Day & Islander 322 & 37 Scottsdale, AZ & Owls Head, ME
I thought you were rather restrained.
Does the air horn mean “Back off!”?
 
Aug 1, 2011
3,972
Catalina 270 255 Wabamun. Welcome to the marina
Must have been the new cooler coils in the fridge.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Everyone seems so calm and polite. That is often not how it goes when a boat is barging. More like: "LEEWARD!!!! MOTHERF&%@&$R!!!"
I know the boat and skipper. They know the rules well, just tried to push it. So no need to get super colorful. Plus it was a smaller boat. ;^)

images.jpg
 
Aug 1, 2011
3,972
Catalina 270 255 Wabamun. Welcome to the marina
Buying a bigger boat? Or is that a reference to more like a “Pogo” stick?
 
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gdudik

.
Oct 25, 2017
87
Catalina 22 Vancouver, WA
Racing FJ’s in college, our line was, “don’t go in there! Don’t do it!”

I still catch myself saying that to traffic while driving.

Very nice start, by the way.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Racing FJ’s in college, our line was, “don’t go in there! Don’t do it!”

I still catch myself saying that to traffic while driving.

Very nice start, by the way.
Thanks. We totally wanted to go right, so that meant a start at the boat so we could tack when we wanted. Which was about 30 seconds after that video ended!
 
May 23, 2016
217
O'Day 1984 23 Island Park, NY
Heh heh... I was the other guy a few weeks back... Just made my tack back to the line a little late... Wanted to try but instead settled for the same boat end start just behind the leader... Beat my division to the first mark and every one therefter too!
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Boy, that Soling can really point. And yes, wish I could start like that.
No kidding. With that long thin hull and super tight headsail sheeting angle, the thing can go to the moon. He pinched high to try and create a lane above our leebow, but soon tacked over like we did.
 
Aug 2, 2010
502
J-Boat J/88 Cobourg
Tactics question and hopefully it doesn't seem too obvious. Clay, it appears that you set a course on starboard to run just inside the committee boat and had your timing nailed to arrive at the line just after the starting horn. Assuming you were pointing as high as possible, the only risk (other than being early) would be boats on/near the line you would be overtaking as anyone else would be windward, is this correct? We commonly have a few boats who hang around to windward and above the line behind the committee boat and then duck around the boat at the start and this would seem to be the best way to deal with that. Do I have your tactics and reasoning correct?

Follow up, what if there are several boats dawdling there just leeward of the boat which you would be overtaking as you arrive at the line. I see that with speed you have no problem going around them assuming there is room between them but we seem to have everybody crammed in a little space there with no assurance that I will have room, or the ability to fall off and go around to leeward of them.

Sorry if this is too simplistic a discussion of tactics, but I haven't figured it out yet and it always seems the boat end is favoured.

Dan
 

Apex

.
Jun 19, 2013
1,197
C&C 30 Elk Rapids
Dan:
Couple of tactics at start:
The problem with being above the line, attempting to get around the committee boat is that a leeward boat has ROW, so they can simply head you up, and you are cut off from the line. Trying to nudge in can be barging. That is what JD called on the start. (BTW it looks like they were plenty far back, and couldn't get over you... but camera lens could be distorting my opinion on room).

What I have learned most recently as trump above all is to protect a clear hole to leeward of you, which allows you to go bow down, accelerate and get across the line at full speed.

The fleet somewhat dictates your start, and you need to get your position in the last 1-2minutes of starting sequence. That will let you know what your start tactics will finally be. Even if you are close-reached as possible another leeward boat luffing up will force you to luff as well or duck and accelerate around. Having clear room to leeward gives you a place to accelerate and no boats you owe room.

If there is a big group hanging at the boat, a mid-line start may be better served, sailing on the conveyor (pre-start run of the line) closer to mid-line to avoid all of the bad air. Of course, for this race JD stated his entire goal was to tack and head to the right of the course. Mid-line may see you stuck riding it out until half the fleet has flopped over, or simply take an early hit, duck the fleet to get right.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
OK, below is a picture of the what the situation was as the video started. BlueJ is in Blue, and yes has a close-hauled line to boat were we wanted to start. We made sure we had room to leeward of us, and in this position are very safe as long as the timing is to line is good. The REAL battle for the start happened in the 60 seconds BEFORE this moment! All the boats that are to windward of us are barging and have no rights unless that can get over us and put us clear astern. But that would have been very hard because our timing was right on. And if they can get over, that means that are early and now windward of the boats leeward of us.

At the very start of the video you can hear me say 'everyone in front of us is early'. There were 2-3 boats that were indeed early and had to run down the line. The other boats with good timing you can't see as they are leeward of us. The boats in the background are waiting for the next start. There other boats farther down the line that are not relevant to the discussion.

Now the boats to windward. The Ensign tried to barge, I called him on that. You never see them in the video until well after the start, but they are almost behind the RC when I call them and bail at the last possible moment. The Soling (you see) wanted to tuck up and take a line to windward of us, but saw I left zero room to do that. The j/70 simply waited and took a 2nd row start; not a bad thing when you know you're going to flip right away. The down-side is that you do not control your start.

image.jpg
 
Last edited:
Aug 2, 2010
502
J-Boat J/88 Cobourg
Thorough answers Guys, and thanks. This fits my thinking and forms the basis for a good strategy in future as I have been in both the early (floating down the line) and second row positions but seldom have been able to pick my own line to the start due to the 12 keelboats milling in that area.
Clay, can I ask how you time your approach so well? Do you practice a run in from a transited location and use the timing to plan your run in?
Apex, are you content to start further down the line if you have the room to build speed? It seems that every time we start further down the line it appears we are slower to the windward mark. This is in part perhaps due to the fact that the port tack seems favoured in terms of the course (and we aren't fast enough to get in front) and the fact that the other two fleets are coming back downwind as we are reaching the middle of the course making for bad wind and crossing situations as we try to get back to the right side.
Thanks so much for the input Folks!
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Tactics question and hopefully it doesn't seem too obvious. Clay, it appears that you set a course on starboard to run just inside the committee boat and had your timing nailed to arrive at the line just after the starting horn. Assuming you were pointing as high as possible, the only risk (other than being early) would be boats on/near the line you would be overtaking as anyone else would be windward, is this correct? We commonly have a few boats who hang around to windward and above the line behind the committee boat and then duck around the boat at the start and this would seem to be the best way to deal with that. Do I have your tactics and reasoning correct?

Follow up, what if there are several boats dawdling there just leeward of the boat which you would be overtaking as you arrive at the line. I see that with speed you have no problem going around them assuming there is room between them but we seem to have everybody crammed in a little space there with no assurance that I will have room, or the ability to fall off and go around to leeward of them.

Sorry if this is too simplistic a discussion of tactics, but I haven't figured it out yet and it always seems the boat end is favoured.

Dan
Hey @danstanford ,

I'll try and add specif answers to your questions. Please read my old post first for background.

The first thing to remember is that in ANY time boats meet, Section 2 says one of them ALWAYS has right of way, and the other need to keep clear. So any boat in front of you while you made your way up is clear ahead, but once your bow overlaps their transom than can can switch.

One Design or match racing boats can stop as a group near the line. Called a 'dial up' this is very rare in handicap racing. Stopping at the line puts you a big risk. So, you are ether early, on time, or late. And boat 'stalled' in front of me is in trouble. If they stay there I'll either drive over the top of them, or 'hook' them from below. Before that start there is no proper coarse, and Rule 17 is off. That means if you get your nose below a boat at the start they are in big trouble. You can turn them straight to windward, then fall off.

A big part of this is being comfortable with the rules, and being close enough to other boats to enforce your rights. You might have rights, but if the other boat does not restrict you, they have not broken a rule.

So finally, any boat to windward of that layline or who is early is at risk. I tell new racers to simply focus on getting to the line 1) On time 2) With Speed 3) Clear Air. Do that and you're doing well. The next level is doing that were you want to, to position yourself on the course based on your strategy.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Thorough answers Guys, and thanks. This fits my thinking and forms the basis for a good strategy in future as I have been in both the early (floating down the line) and second row positions but seldom have been able to pick my own line to the start due to the 12 keelboats milling in that area.
Clay, can I ask how you time your approach so well? Do you practice a run in from a transited location and use the timing to plan your run in?
Apex, are you content to start further down the line if you have the room to build speed? It seems that every time we start further down the line it appears we are slower to the windward mark. This is in part perhaps due to the fact that the port tack seems favoured in terms of the course (and we aren't fast enough to get in front) and the fact that the other two fleets are coming back downwind as we are reaching the middle of the course making for bad wind and crossing situations as we try to get back to the right side.
Thanks so much for the input Folks!
All good racers end up being very good at doing TSD (Time Speed Distance) models in their head. While some are just naturally good at it, it can be learned. Practice making BOATLENGTHxN runs at marks/buoys etc, and notice how long it takes. What you want it to know (in any given windspeed) how many seconds it will take to cover that distance. At 5 knots your boat sails a boatlength every 5 seconds. Do this over and over.

The reason this is so important is that if you get closehauled and time this right, there is VERY little people can do to mess with your start. Learn to be a few seconds early, not late. If you need to slow down a bit, have your trimmers ease to bleed some speed. Then power up in time to hit the line at speed.
 

Apex

.
Jun 19, 2013
1,197
C&C 30 Elk Rapids
Hey @danstanford ,

..... I tell new racers to simply focus on getting to the line 1) On time 2) With Speed 3) Clear Air. Do that and you're doing well. The next level is doing that were you want to, to position yourself on the course based on your strategy.
WELL STATED @Jackdaw

Dan, I am content to start a bit down-line if there is a pile up at boat end and staying in the first row. If right is favored the fleet will go that way giving you room to go as well...you can also burn speed at start to keep those above you above, and boats trying to come up to leeward often sail on by, giving you the room you need. That let's you stay closer to committee.

JD has TSD down, esp. racing BlueJ over the years. He is also positioning himself for clear air to that run, otherwise he is gassed and doesn't get there at full speed. Only 1 boat gets to the boat at the gun, how did they get there? Then practice that next time.....practice, debrief, practice, debrief....