The death of house batteries

Apr 26, 2018
137
Catalina Catalina 30 Bayview
well here it is. After all the work this summer, took the kids out for the first overnight trip off the dock last weekend. Batteries died as I turned on house lights. Ahh, I initially thought it was because the charger was not turned on the panel. After a week of charge they are still dead. Bummer because it was our last weekend sail. Oh well. Now for my dread. I opened the cabinet where batteries are.....and I barfed with electrical wire mess...
AAD859DD-0B8F-401B-9E54-C349E2422266.jpeg

I have been in active denial that the cabinet existed. Omg, why?! Who?!

I have been reading through Mainesail’s battery stuff and I’m a little overwhelmed. These are 6v t105 Trojan batteries. I think the owner said they are no more then 3-4 years old. I think she killed them with leaving them charge all winter while hooked to boat. Then complete drain while sitting in 90 degree boat.

I have to see what type of charger is attached to when I go back up.

Mainesails website has a lot to look at...
 
Last edited:
Jan 22, 2008
8,050
Beneteau 323 Annapolis MD
Only the TWO batteries? AND an INVERTER? Crimey, if you've been working on the boat all summer and still have this mess, you've been working on the wrong things and only have yourself to blame for the boat not working. Yeah, read Mainsails articles.
 
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Sep 25, 2008
7,075
Alden 50 Sarasota, Florida
Putting a charger "on" for a week on dead batteries while unattended is a receipe for disaster. Consider yourself very lucky and a little negligent about safety of your family. This is why I am often reluctant to sail very far on other people's' boats.
 
Apr 8, 2010
1,942
Ericson Yachts Olson 34 28400 Portland OR
Sounds like you live away from easy contact with your boat. Best just start with a blank sheet of paper (no batteries needed for that!) and diagram out where the wires (big and small) all go to.
As others point out, once your batteries die all the way, it's unlikely they will be resuscitated (even tho this is the season of repeat showings RHPS and Young Frankenstein. :)
Your picture shows a discouraging number of wires which might dismay even an expert, at least initially.
OTOH, your Trojan batteries were a top choice when new. We have a pair of T-145 Trojan batteries for our house bank. Ours live on shore power year 'round and when we are out cruising we routinely run the boat, fridge and all, for two days on the hook, and then start the diesel with that bank.
We do have a late model solid stage marine battery charger, and I check the water level in those $$$ batteries about once a month. They never take more than an oz. or two. This pair replaced an identical pair that lasted 9 years, so I remain an unpaid salesperson for Trojan batteries. (!)
Good luck on trouble shooting this, and post up your findings and questions. More photos always helps us.

Regards,
Loren

ps: do not feel too bad about this, boat DC systems seem a bit complicated at first, but are understandable. It takes time and effort, but the payoff is cruising without (undue) worry.
 
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Aug 3, 2012
2,542
Performance Cruising Telstar 28 302 Watkins Glen
You, sir... are FIRED! ...um just kidding.:laugh: However, I feel your pain! I bet we all have a wire or two that needs to be tidied-up. You gotta make this a priority, especially since you suspect you are draining current somewhere. Consider Nigel Calder’s book on marine electronics. It has a variety of schematics for systems. It seems you understand some. By the way, that one battery pretty clearly is labelled: T-105. Yet, you say you have T-125 batteries... hmmm... I have no idea what the difference is, but you should be aware the batteries are not what you may think.
 
Aug 22, 2011
1,113
MacGregor Venture V224 Cheeseland
It really doesn't look that bad to me either. Looks like most of the cables are of the proper types, in good shape and not all corroded and such. Looks like a lot of it is just excess wire shoved into the box, nothing a couple of hours of neatening can't fix. Can't see what the fusing might look like tho....
 
Apr 26, 2018
137
Catalina Catalina 30 Bayview
Man, this board can be harsh sometimes. I am not hurt and do need a safe space to cry and suck my thumb, and truthfully a lot can be lost when trying to explain complex things on a forum board; but that being said, it is not what you say, it's how you say it. Negligent, poor worker. Thanks for the encouragement. Edit: see below. I did need a safe space to suck my thumb. I cried a little. Got back on the horse.

That being said, thanks for the actual encouragement. In more conversations with the owner of the boat ( I share), she has not added solution or even checked any of the batteries in the last 3 years. This is likely neglect that killed them if that is the case. It is hooked to a shore power charging system most of the time, the brand I am not sure yet. I am not sure if it is a smart charger that reduces charging based on voltage sensing device on electrical panel. This system was installed by a cruising couple in 2006 or so, and the actual batteries were replaced 3 or 4 years ago (yes T105, missed that, the original replacements were t125 on docs I have). The system has been problem free and she has used it running refrigeration, hot water heater, and pressure water systems off the shore power for 2-3 days at a time. She said she does turn the refrigeration off at night for battery life. Thanks for the description FastOlsen, as this sounds similar to your set up. When I asked about installation, I was told that the original cruising couple had it professionally installed, but I do wonder if that is accurate due to the mess. She did say that they left it alone over the years because all was well. Most all electrical components were added in the mid-2000s.

I have never had an inverter on a boat, and I have not used it. It is not currently powered on. The box is under the navigation table and all of the wiring under the nav station leads to the electrical panel that was put in in 2004.
IMG_3409.JPG


The starting battery is in engine compartment and is a standard deep cycle Interstate battery and is 1 year old. It it fine and I will be checking it in the spring and topping off charge. I will disconnect it from the boat altogether as Mainesail recommended for winter storage. Not sure how bilge pump can be kept wired on in the winter if all are disconnected. She has always kept batteries on shore power charging system over winter and this does the bilge pump. I am less afraid of system leaking current somewhere after our more detailed discussions.

This is example of the wiring that runs under the quarter berth. That is the fuel line and filter for Dickinson diesel heater. I am sure that someone will let me know if I am at high risk for spontaneous combustion from diesel/electrical fire.
IMG_4220.JPG


Needless to say, the boat has some system issues that would not be ok if this boat was mine. The owner and I have discussions about priorities, safety being one of them at the top of the list. Hence spending time re-running the propane system as it is not safe. Replacing wooden spreaders as they are original. Having the 170 Genoa cut down, its too big and binds on the furler. Now battery replacement. I also have refinishing of all exterior wood, making a rig-up winter cover (she never had one) and also winterizing water system and engine.
 
Last edited:
Oct 22, 2014
20,992
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
it is not what you say, it's how you say it. Negligent, poor worker.
I have been in active denial that the cabinet existed. Omg, why?
How do you tell a person in Idaho, that is in active denial, that priorities are screwed up. I know a couple of spud farmers who would use a lot harsher words then “a little negligent”.

I understand that it is not your boat and you are doing work on the boat to get a share of the sailing enjoyment. In my opinion you need to be the voice of wisdom. Ask for advice you then need to translate it (sugar coat it) for the owner. Just know if you are not clear and direct about the important things you can get in trouble.

The owner and I have discussions about priorities, safety being one of them at the top of the list.
Just to state it clearly. SAFETY when it affects a boat and the people on the boat, for most if not all of the members of this forum IS THE NUMBER ONE THING ON THE LIST.

Your battery dilema. Not putting water in Lead Flood batteries. Not checking batteries water level on a regular basis will kill the batteries and they will not recover. Plain and simple. This can become dangerous if you try to charge them in this dangerous condition. This is a SAFETY issue and not attending to this issue is behavioral neglect of a priority issue. I would put it at the top of the check list of activities in getting ready to take the boat out... CHECK the batteries and make sure they have water in them. That is exactly what I do when I get to my boat before I take her out for a week of sailing.

What to do about the electrical... As Don suggested and I suspect you know you need to develop a plan. Make a diagram of the electrical systems on the boat. Then go through the boat and label each wire. Where it is, where it goes, what in connects to. AC or DC. As you are doing this inspection you will want to check that the wire color is correct for the job it is doing. Do you know what colors are correct? MaineSail’s website and Stu’s Electrical 101 links are full of accurate data to answer this question.

Perhaps before going any further and asking your friend for money to change the boat with this or that it would help both of you to open all of the cabinets and reduce the “OMG” drama to a list of all the items you see. Your own survey of the boat and all of it’s systems.
Then begin your list making using categories: Propulsion, Electrical etc. Then prioritize the list of things beginning with 1. SAFETY, 2. Things that need to be done, 3. Things I would like to do, 4 Things I’ll do when I get around to it. That way you and the boat owner can agree on what needs to be solved and what you want to solve. No more shocks “you need to spend another $1000 bucks on the boat right now or we are going to die.”

Finally I would ENCOURAGE you to limit your forum posts to solving one problem at a time. You have started a thread on battery trouble, then introduce a wiring system of spaghetti, and ended the discussion about your Genoa and replacing wooden spreaders. As I read your post my head was spinning.
Good luck.. Are you planning to pull the boat from the lake for winter?
 

Ward H

.
Nov 7, 2011
3,645
Catalina 30 Mk II Barnegat, NJ
@uralite
First, your electrical issues:
IMHO, I wouldn't worry about the mess of wires. It is untidy but I've seen a lot worse posted on the forums. It's what's behind that real nice Blue Sea distribution panel where tidiness counts. That's where wires should be marked, bundled and secured prior going to the panel.
A few hours with some zip ties and that area can be made to look a lot better.
There is no need to start over or start diagraming your electrical system at this point. Untidy is not necessarily dangerous, just makes troubleshooting harder to do.

The issues I see that need to be addressed are:
1. All positive cables coming off the positive battery post need to be fused within 7" of the batter post. Easy fix. Install a MRBF (marine rated battery fuse) battery terminal fuse.Under $25.
2. Positive battery terminals need protective covers to prevent accidental shorts unless they are in covered battery boxes. The MRBF battery terminals will come with it's own cover. You will need a cover for the positive terminal itself.
3. Batteries need to be secured so they don't move. I doubt that yellow strap will hold them properly. You should add a properly secured strap with buckle to hold the batteries in place.

So you didn't check the water in your batteries. Your not the first and certainly won't be the last person to fail to do so. Replace the batteries and check the water monthly and fill as needed. Lesson learned.
BTW, it sounds like the batteries were doomed long before you got involved.
You can check the charger but it sounds like you already have identified what killed the batteries. A dumb charger is not necessarily dangerous to you. It will just shorten the life of the batteries.

I do agree with John on this point.
Perhaps before going any further and asking your friend for money to change the boat with this or that it would help both of you to open all of the cabinets and reduce the “OMG” drama to a list of all the items you see. Your own survey of the boat and all of it’s systems.
Then begin your list making using categories: Propulsion, Electrical etc. Then prioritize the list of things beginning with 1. SAFETY, 2. Things that need to be done, 3. Things I would like to do, 4 Things I’ll do when I get around to it. That way you and the boat owner can agree on what needs to be solved and what you want to solve. No more shocks “you need to spend another $1000 bucks on the boat right now or we are going to die.”
This is what I did when I bought my O'day 25 and again when I bought my C30. I found it very valuable to keep me on track and budget with my various repair and upgrade projects.

The photo of the wiring under the quarter berth doesn't scare me. I don't know what the standards are for that type of install but in my engine compartment I have many wires in close proximity of fuel lines, filter and pump.

I would move that grill gas bottle out of the cabin. They frequently leak. I don't store them in the boat, only bring them on board when I'm going to use them. I plan on removing the propane bottle for the stove/oven and store my grill bottles in the propane locker.
 
Apr 26, 2018
137
Catalina Catalina 30 Bayview
First let me be frank. I am sorry for being defensive. I frequently am a jack ass, I apologize often so I am fairly comfortable with it. I usually know when I am being a jack ass, and the fact that I was being so dumb did not occur to me until it was pointed out. That is what caught me off guard and I got defensive. Plus, I always feel acutely worse when I do something dumb to someone else's stuff, if it was mine, I would feel less bad.

I also felt bad that my bromance on SBO was in conflict, it bummed me out all day. I told one of my local Idaho natives I work with about John's post. He did also concur with John that a true North Idaho native would have been rougher on me and a few more things about feminine hygiene products I can't say.

I listed all the other stuff because my head is spinning, but really I was self conscious that I just ignored the batteries. That was dumb. I admit it.

I went up tonight and did the Trojan 105 flooded battery check as labeled in the owners guide. It is then that I became acutely aware that I was indeed stupid and I got mad at those who pointed out. It took less then 5 min to check levels, they are easy to get to, and distilled water is cheap. I also remembered that I pooched a car battery in AZ because I did not know to keep it filled with distilled water.

The battery charger is built in "smart" charger designed to not cook off the batteries. Manufacturer is Guest Model 2612A. There is a Xantrex Link 20 battery monitor.

Now for the bad. Each battery required a full gallon of distilled water to bring all above the plates. The voltage was at 12.6 v and battery monitor went to green once topped off. I expect they are dead and I will expect replacement.

All propane bottles are in dedicated propane locker with drain attached, propane system being relocated to safe locker this winter.
Edit: drain attached. Jeez type right buddy
 
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Oct 22, 2014
20,992
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
All propane bottles are in dedicated propane locker with drain not attached
All is good.

Is the propane locker sealed? Is there a drain st the bottom? Can you attach a drain the vents overboard safely? Remember propane is heavier than air. That’s wha is the issue for a boat. It will seek the lowest point. Just flownlike water into the bilge. That’s the bad. Put it in a sealed locker with a drain vent out the bottom of the locker and you good. Put anything that might spark, like the electrical shut off, outside of the locker. Run your hoses continuously, through bulkhead sealed fittings to the stove. Attach to the stove. Soap and water squirt on all fittings to check for leaks. Your back in business.
 
Jan 19, 2010
1,169
Catalina 34 Casco Bay
I feel your pain... Needed to replace the starting battery this past spring. 2 months later the house bank of 3 failed. Went with AGMs. Experienced low voltage all season. I suspect a bad cell or battery, and when one goes south it will suck the life out of the others. Time for a load test and possible warrantee replacement.
 
Apr 26, 2018
137
Catalina Catalina 30 Bayview
I really wanted to let this thread die because it makes me kinda look like an ass. That being said, I can be so I guess just go with it. I am going up this weekend to begin the winterization of the boat and doing all the non-ethanol PG antifreeze for systems I have never had on a boat. I have been doing my homework and I will likely ask the marina guys to go through it with me and pay them to be sure I don't miss anything that will cause problems. That being said:

I was laying in bed pondering the batteries. I will be replacing them in the spring after adding a gallon of distilled water to each of them. Do I need to take them out this fall? Will they be diluted enough to have a hard freeze and crack the cases? Jeez, I had visions of acid all over the inside of the boat when it thaws out ? If I do, will the bilge pump be hardwired to the engine starting battery? I do not believe that is the case and I will bring the multi-meter to check wiring from bilge pump. My question is whether that gallon of water will freeze in the battery or is the acid enough to prevent hard freeze?
 

Ward H

.
Nov 7, 2011
3,645
Catalina 30 Mk II Barnegat, NJ
I am going up this weekend to begin the winterization of the boat
Have you seen this thread on winterizing fresh water and sanitation systems?
https://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/winterizing-plumbing.123472/
It's a great guide to follow.

As for the batteries, all batteries should be in battery boxes that will fully contain the acid if the battery case cracked. You can add the boxes now but if the batteries are toast why just not pull them out of the boat as you winterize the system. One less thing to worry about over the winter.
 
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Jan 19, 2010
1,169
Catalina 34 Casco Bay
If you're going to replace the batteries in the spring....you might as well remove them now ( or after winterization). Then your concerns will also be removed..
 
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Apr 26, 2018
137
Catalina Catalina 30 Bayview
New batteries in, new straps added, boxes with protective caps. They were $125 each, seems small change for peace of mind. The cases were deformed and he cells were all dead. The new batteries are well secured.

Thanks for the winterization link. That helped. All is put away for the season except for taking off the sails and doing the cover after she is moved to a more protective dock.
 
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