ST winch question - potential project

[Justin_NSA]

We've had the Hunter for about 3 years now. It's the first time I've used ST winches. Whenever we tack, I can only put 1 wrap on the leeward winch when we bring the headsail across during the maneuver. Otherwise it will overwrap and cause a mess. With only one wrap, I can sheet it in some to prevent flogging, then add more wraps before I use the winch. Same on either side. One wrap isn't desirable when it is blowing. Is that making sense?
Is this normal? Self tailing or not shouldn't make a difference. I'm wondering if my winches need to be dismantled and lubed. Maybe they would spin better with the extra wraps and not overwrap. hence the potential project.

 

[Jackdaw]

This is always caused by the sheet not leading into the winch at the correct angle. The sheet needs to enter the winch just BELOW the level-line bisecting the bottom of the drum. 5-10 degrees is ideal. It can be a bit more, but never above this line. Above and it will always overwrap.

Why only when using the ST feature? You are probably compensating for the line angle with your tailing hand without noticing it.

 

[Justin_NSA]

Thanks JD, for the diagram too. When we got her and right away were having trouble, the angle was the first thing that came to mind. Then I thought has this always been a problem, for the PO too or is it new?
I don't have a good picture. I cropped one from a distance. It kinda shows the block leading the sheet at a pretty low angle to the winch. I need to drive out and look a little closer.

 

[Jackdaw]

What does your sheet run look like? I’ve seen Hunters in that range that take the sheet AFT of the winch to a cheek block and then forward to the winch to get a better angle.

 

[Jackdaw]

One other thing. (You may know all of this)

When sheeting in a lot of loose sheet (like in a tack), you can usually only have 2 wraps on on ANY winch. Pull it in quickly arm over arm, and when you get close put on two more wraps. When it start to get hard to pull, keep the sheet tight and go over the wiper and into the jaws. Now use the ST to sheet on.

 

[Justin_NSA]

Why only when using the ST feature? You are probably compensating for the line angle with your tailing hand without noticing it.

Missed this part. My post is misleading. I don't even get to using the ST part. Just trying to put more than one wrap on the winch before I haul the sheet it a bit. It never overwrapped on my other boat. If the sheet angle is okay (In think) then I thought maybe the sheet has to spin around the winch, not with it causing the problem.

 

[Justin_NSA]

One other thing. (You may know all of this)

When sheeting in a lot of loose sheet (like in a tack), you can usually only have 2 wraps on on ANY winch. Pull it in quickly arm over arm, and when you get close put on two more wraps. When it start to get hard to pull, keep the sheet tight and go over the wiper and into the jaws. Now use the ST to sheet on.

Don't assume I know anything
I would like to have 2 wraps for more friction but I can't without fouling it up. I have to wrap once, remove the slack then carefully add another wrap or two and then over the and into the jaws.

 

[JRacer]

Our SOP is one wrap for the fast tailing while going through the tack then as soon as all the slack is out, two more quick wraps and into the ST jaw for fine trimming with the handle. If done right (driver and trimmer in sync), the handle is not needed very much, if at all, at the end. Guessing your entry angle is the issue.

 

[dlochner]

In addition to proper sheet leads, there must be some tension on the line as it wraps around the winch for the ST to work. If there is slack the lines on the winch can slip and over ride.

As @JRacer says, bring as much line as you can in before adding wraps to the winch and using the ST. How much line bring will depend on lots of factors, like strength, sail size, wind, point of sail, etc. Just beside there is as much tension on the line as possible before adding wraps and using the ST.

 

[FastOlson]

We've had the Hunter for about 3 years now. It's the first time I've used ST winches. Whenever we tack, I can only put 1 wrap on the leeward winch when we bring the headsail across during the maneuver. Otherwise it will overwrap and cause a mess. With only one wrap, I can sheet it in some to prevent flogging, then add more wraps before I use the winch. Same on either side. One wrap isn't desirable when it is blowing. Is that making sense?
Is this normal? Self tailing or not shouldn't make a difference. I'm wondering if my winches need to be dismantled and lubed. Maybe they would spin better with the extra wraps and not overwrap. hence the potential project.

You probably know this, but the way you helm the boat thru the tack makes a big difference. If you bring it over all in one big fast move (like my AP does.....!) it is difficult to stop the sail or sheet from fouling on mast and shrouds. There is also then the problem of too much slack sheet too soon on the new side and you have to winch a lot in while the sail bangs around.
Better to tack by, say, 10 degree increments. Just a hesitation at each short "stop".
This lets the crew get the new sheet well in - by hand - before the sail is pulling hard on the new tack. Of course when I am alone, and the AP is driving, it's back to the old scramble again.

 

[Justin_NSA]

I may just have to be sure the angle is correct and evaluate our technique.
I probably should break down and lube my winches regardless. I have no idea the last time they were done. Don't need them to wear out prematurely. Sail magazine just put out a high level how-to in the latest issue. 'tis the season for planning pre-launch maintenance.

 

[dlochner]

I may just have to be sure the angle is correct and evaluate our technique.
I probably should break down and lube my winches regardless. I have no idea the last time they were done. Don't need them to wear out prematurely. Sail magazine just put out a high level how-to in the latest issue. 'tis the season for planning pre-launch maintenance.

Check out Practical Sailor's recent article on winch maintenance. No need to use expensive lewmar grease. And light machine oil is not a good choice for pawls and springs as it evaporates too quickly and leaves them bare.

 

[Justin_NSA]

Thanks Dave. Found it. They say use motor oil.
https://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/37_70/features/Winch-Servicing-Basics_12088-1.html
Grease test
https://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/37_70/features/Winch-Grease-Corrosion-Tests_12090-1.html

 

[Stu Jackson]

Of course when I am alone, and the AP is driving, it's back to the old scramble again.

I hear ya, Loren. I stopped using the AP to tack (it still works) because it usually over steered in addition to doing it too quickly. I tack manually by standing in front of the wheel after disengaging the AP, nice and steady. Make the new course. Upwind the boat steers herself until I re-engage the AP. Other courses and wind speeds I have to hustle to re-engage, but no issues doing that.

Justin, trimming has a lot of components, as you're learning.

 

[thinwater]

In fact, even on larger boats (larger than the OP with double the sheet load) I prefer to have only one turn on the winch when hand-hauling. It's faster. The moment you can't haul any more, add 2-3 more turns. But you certainly don't want to be hauling with a full stack of turns. That's just wasted friction.

Plus what Jackdaw said. You should be able to haul with 2 wraps. I may do that if it's really blowing, but only if on the edge of reefing, and I don't reef early.

Much of tacking is about timing. In principle, you should be able to get the sailing 95% of the way, or even 100% without grinding, with perfect timing. The sail should be sheeted home just before the load comes on. The way to get it right is to just do it over and over one day, critiquing each step, and then trying to get smoother. It's not so much about being fast as about being smooth. Speed will come as a result.

 

[FDL S2]

You probably know this, but the way you helm the boat thru the tack makes a big difference. If you bring it over all in one big fast move (like my AP does.....!) it is difficult to stop the sail or sheet from fouling on mast and shrouds. There is also then the problem of too much slack sheet too soon on the new side and you have to winch a lot in while the sail bangs around.
Better to tack by, say, 10 degree increments. Just a hesitation at each short "stop".
This lets the crew get the new sheet well in - by hand - before the sail is pulling hard on the new tack. Of course when I am alone, and the AP is driving, it's back to the old scramble again.

Slowing down and being smoother with my tacks (slow is smooth, smooth is fast) is one of the things I wrote down at the end of last year to work on this upcoming season when single hand. I nail it perfectly about 50% of the time, 40% of the time it's ok and the other 10% feels like I'm putting sheets on a clothesline in a hurricane.