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Spinnaker size

Discussion in 'Ask An Oday Owner' started by Tim66, Jan 20, 2019. Add this thread to a FAQ

  1. Meriachee

    Meriachee

    Joined Aug 1, 2011
    3,049 posts, 976 likes
    Catalina 270
    CA Wabamun - on the orange ball
    Sweet shot Tom.
     


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  2. DrJudyB

    DrJudyB

    Joined Jun 25, 2004
    243 posts, 159 likes
    Corsair F24 Mk1
    003 US San Francisco Bay, CA
    We handle our asymm sailing double-handed, without any drama. We do it frequently. I can do it single handed with an autopilot or tiller clutch, but rarely need to. I like to drive and trim simultaneously.

    It’s easily done if the boat is set up for it. The spinnaker winches are near the helm. Halyards and tack lines run aft to the cockpit. On a couple of boat we launched the chute from a bag in the companion way.

    I’d recommend you take a lesson or two from somebody who knows how to double or single hand an asymm. It’s really not hard to do if you know how to helm whilst launching and dousing.
     


    Meriachee likes this.
  3. Pizzazz

    Pizzazz

    Joined Sep 11, 2015
    86 posts, 24 likes
    Hunter 31
    US Marina del Rey
    The issue with spinnakers is that you raise them in light winds and typically need to bring it down in medium winds. Some people (racers) manage alone but taking down the spinnaker in 25 knots of wind and reasonable swell is not pretty. You need to blanket the sail with the main (difficult to do with an autopilot but possible), you need to release the hallyard while packing the sail. Even with a sock, it is still difficult. Every couple of times you will mess it up and then it takes hours to fix. Thus, my suggestion is, either do it in light winds (<15 knots) or have crew on board.

    The question then becomes, exactly how much speed (or VMG) you are gaining with a spinnaker vs. a poled 155% genoa in 10 knots? In my experience, less than a knot with an asymmetrical and slightly more a symmetrical. If you having fun with friends who are willing to help, by all means. If you are in the trade winds, well it is kind of a requirement but the average wind speed is 15-18 knots. You are always on the edge.

    SV Pizzazz
     


    jon hansen likes this.
  4. jon hansen

    jon hansen

    Joined May 25, 2012
    1,382 posts, 858 likes
    john alden caravelle 42
    us sturgeon bay, wis
    pizzaazz has it right. all the videos that were shared were during VERY light winds. sorta like having a ski video on the bunny hill. light wind stunts. OK that's all good. however if you learn the parameters for all conditions first, i think that it is a better way to teach.
    the instructional video had 5 crew working to show how it's done. the light winds just made it easier to film i suppose.
    bunny hill, green, blue, black, double diamond, yellow diamond, courbet's coulor at jackson hole. if you learn to do it right you can up your game to doing it all.
    i'm a cruiser that sails my boats to a very dynamic level. never raced much as i find it too confining.
     


  5. Meriachee

    Meriachee

    Joined Aug 1, 2011
    3,049 posts, 976 likes
    Catalina 270
    CA Wabamun - on the orange ball
    That's where the intended application comes into play. My 155 is plastic and refuses to cooperate in conditions where you could light a match and hold it up and it doesn't go out. (can't imagine why that might be)

    That's the logic behind the kite, it's fully 30% bigger than recommended for this boat, and would have been bigger, had the sailmaker not managed to talk me out of it. It's a no-wind sail. That comes with added responsibility at the same time, there's no opportunity to sit back and say that the pipe in the breeze is ok, cuz it's not. It gets rolled up at 10kts. Period.
    I'm looking at the avatar and I'm thinking that you could almost wrap the whole main with this sail.
     


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  6. DrJudyB

    DrJudyB

    Joined Jun 25, 2004
    243 posts, 159 likes
    Corsair F24 Mk1
    003 US San Francisco Bay, CA
    I don't believe anybody in THIS thread has advised using an asymm in 25 kts of wind, nor claimed that its easy to do that. Including me or Mariachee.

    In 25 kt TWS, most semi- and full-displacment hull sailboats have more than enough power to sail at max hull speed without a spinnaker (displacement or semi-displacement hull speed).

    A spinnaker comes into its glory for cruising in between 4-15 kts, when the boat is sailing at deep angles. At these wind speeds and these deep angles, the apparent wind speed is under 10 knots apparent, and the boat can benefit from the additional power afforded by an asymmetric. On many boats, the asymm provides enough power to increase downwind VMG by 25-50% at deep angles, in less than 15 kts TWS.

    For example, on one of my previous boats, using the asymm in about 8 kts of wind increased my downwind speed to 6 kts, vs with main and genoa 4.3 wing and wing. That makes a significant difference in the distance I can travel in an hour!


    Judy B
    Retired sail loft owner.
     


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  7. Pizzazz

    Pizzazz

    Joined Sep 11, 2015
    86 posts, 24 likes
    Hunter 31
    US Marina del Rey
    I totally agree that the spinnaker is most useful in 5-15 knots of wind. I am just learning to use spinnakers and in my experience typical trade winds are 15-18 knots. So, you constantly worry about how you will take it down if the wind increases. Last few times we were lazy and ended up taking it down in >20 knot wind speeds and it was not fun.

    By the way, if you can do 4.3 in 8 knots of wind, this is great. I do not think I can do that wing on wing. May be with a pole.
     


  8. jon hansen

    jon hansen

    Joined May 25, 2012
    1,382 posts, 858 likes
    john alden caravelle 42
    us sturgeon bay, wis
    the video that mariachee shows is the stupidest, misleading, contradictory, peace of salesmanship i have ever seen!
    while saying you do not have to leave the cockpit it shows them working the sail out of the cockpit, duh.
    it implies a snuffer has inherent problems. says who. they are easy. that's right , i said it

    i assume my opinions here are taken as a kind rebuttal and not some attack on you all

    i count three crew and then four crew in that video. he even says that you should have one crew hold the sheet while crew #two rolls up the sail while crew number three drives. it also shows a forth crew helping at one point.

    plus: why is working the deck considered so dangerous, i don't see it that way. you do here it in sales pitches all the time.

    jon hansen, retired professional sailor
     


  9. Meriachee

    Meriachee

    Joined Aug 1, 2011
    3,049 posts, 976 likes
    Catalina 270
    CA Wabamun - on the orange ball
    Ha. I just like the sail, and there’s that small, minor, almost insignificant business about wet, warm water.
    I don’t like the way they stitched the Marlow anti torsion line, but it did provide the basis for how I stitched mine, and it must have been ok, it’s coming up on 4 years old, and the purported rumours of impending appocolypse haven’t exactly panned our.
     


  10. jon hansen

    jon hansen

    Joined May 25, 2012
    1,382 posts, 858 likes
    john alden caravelle 42
    us sturgeon bay, wis
    blowing then dropping the shoot while cruising in big breezes is easy. using a snuffer while cruising in big breezes is easy. i'll tell you how. drive the boat dead down wind and let the main all the way out. rotate the spinnaker into the wind shadow of the main. blow the clew. pull into cockpit under the boom as the deck crew drops the halyard. same with snuffer. when sail collapses the snuffer come down easily.
     


  11. jon hansen

    jon hansen

    Joined May 25, 2012
    1,382 posts, 858 likes
    john alden caravelle 42
    us sturgeon bay, wis
    doc, it is true that i and my crews like to play in much bigger breezes that most others. therefore i do not sail short handed much. it is not hard to do. it is not scary. we love it.
    we love to ghost along as well. we like it all. driving to weather is a hoot as well. we love to practice our skill. we sail it all. we are not confined to just easy reaching

    ..... and then there is Ascow sailing. 1800 sq ft of sail without a keel. i always wear my life jacket.
     


  12. DrJudyB

    DrJudyB

    Joined Jun 25, 2004
    243 posts, 159 likes
    Corsair F24 Mk1
    003 US San Francisco Bay, CA
    Just to be clear: I was saying my boat speed with an asymm while running deep angles increased from 4.3 to 6 kts. VMG DDW was slower, under 5 kts. There was a sister ship sailing downwind, wing and wind with a poled out genoa behind us, and we were much faster with our asymm than the sistership.

    For example, a J105 will do 6 kts through the water in 8 kts of TWS with the class asymm, at a TWA of about 140-150. That computes to about 5 kts VMG DDW. That's pretty good performance, and there's no drama. My brother and I used to double hand a J105 all the time. In winds up to 15 kts TWS, we'd fly the asymm.

    Judy

    J-105 polars.jpg
     


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  13. Pizzazz

    Pizzazz

    Joined Sep 11, 2015
    86 posts, 24 likes
    Hunter 31
    US Marina del Rey
    Judy, I really think this is great and the J105 is a fast boat. My point was more along the lines of, if sailing in the trade winds, ddw, the diffence is under a knot, even if it is 20% of the speed. On the average, it will add a couple of days to a passage. But, yes, Spinnaker sailing is exciting.
     


  14. jon hansen

    jon hansen

    Joined May 25, 2012
    1,382 posts, 858 likes
    john alden caravelle 42
    us sturgeon bay, wis
     


    Pizzazz likes this.
  15. jon hansen

    jon hansen

    Joined May 25, 2012
    1,382 posts, 858 likes
    john alden caravelle 42
    us sturgeon bay, wis
    i teach that you never cleat the sheet while flying a spinnaker.
     


  16. kappykaplan

    kappykaplan

    Joined May 1, 2011
    909 posts, 163 likes
    Pearson 37
    US Lusby MD
  17. Tally Ho

    Tally Ho

    Joined Jan 7, 2011
    1,198 posts, 214 likes
    Oday 322
    US East Chicago, IN
    That falls under the category of what I used to tell my boys...”See what happens when you are screwing around”!

    Greg
     


  18. Tally Ho

    Tally Ho

    Joined Jan 7, 2011
    1,198 posts, 214 likes
    Oday 322
    US East Chicago, IN
    Oh yeah, and I usually follow up with...” Who’s paying for this Mess?”
     


    Meriachee likes this.

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