Single Handing a Catalina 250

Jackdaw · Jan 16, 2016

JohnVTX said:
Great boat Jack, but most of us cannot afford to go that route. Most buy older used boats and retro-fit them to single hand. Many are better designed for that than others, but can be done effectively with allot of wheeled, as well as tiller controlled boats.

John,

I TOTALLY agree with you. And I'm a huge fan of making what you have work. My comments were not to dispute that; but made in the context of the original question; that a wheel on a C250 made it harder to single-hand. For the points I raised I believe that to be 100% true; and that a wheel on that boat is a exercise in vanity that adds little to the sailing experience and any in most ways detracts from it.

Jackdaw · Jan 16, 2016

Hi druid,

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. Clearly you have a lot of sailing experience. But the boats you mention came configured the way you owned them only (tiller or wheel), and you worked your solo/short handing around that. That's fine and admirable, but none of it speaks to a wheel actually being better then (or even equivalent too) a tiller. That's just the way they came.

And parts of the value equation you simply choose to ignore (like mainsheet access) while that is vitally important to most.

If you want to skip my personal experience on boats that offer both wheel and tillers, simply focus on the fact of the matter. When designers build, and pro sailor choose driving systems for single and short handed sailing, they choose tillers 100% of the time. There is a reason for that, if you accept it or not.

Siamese · Jan 16, 2016

Thread derailment has occurred.

JohnVTX · Jan 16, 2016

druid said:
Yes, Jack, I have a "little" experience single-handing both tiller and wheel boats. About 5 years with a Venture 22 (tiller), 5 on a Cal 25 (tiller), 17 on a Catalina 36 (wheel with AH), 5 on a Crown 28 (wheel with AH), and about 4 on an Ontario 32 (wheel, no AH). That's... I donno... probably a hundred thousand miles if I was to add it all up. I sometimes had "guests" aboard but usually I sailed the boat myself anyway. Oh, and I've been in the Nanaimo Single-Handed Race about 10 times, often not doing too badly as a Cruiser against Racers.

I've had no trouble reaching sheets, traveller, halyards, etc. on a boat with a wheel. As I've said: I pretty much sit in exactly the same position with a wheel that I do with a tiller. And if I DO want to go somewhere beyond the reach of the wheel, I find it easier to lock the wheel than lash the tiller. It is MARGINALLY easier to use a sheet and bungee as a "poor man's autohelm" with a tiller, but it can be done with a wheel as well (but usually not necessary if you balance the boat right).

"Driving position"? Why is it less comfortable with a wheel? As I said, I normally sit on the coaming beside the wheel, same place as I would be with a tiller. For tacking (for instance) I will stand in front of the wheel so I can access the sheets, traveller, etc, reaching behind me to move the wheel when I need to. With a tiller, I would have the tiller between my legs while I did the ropework: not as easy or comfortable as the wheel, which tends to stay in the same place even if it's not locked.

But when I'm not racing I don't normally bother with the traveller, nor do I worry about where I sit wrt boat balance. I think a lot of what you're talking about has to do with racing, and I think most people agree that a tiller IS better for racing. But not for single-handing, imho.

druid

Agreed...

markwbird · Jan 16, 2016

Yes, I know it can be done with a wheel. I do it all the time myself but I have also single handed a tiller boat and there is no question that the tiller is better for single handing in my opinion. Tacking with a tiller is just a matter of standing with the tiller between your legs and steering with you legs while handling the sheets with both hands. All can be done precisely and easily for a clean tack. I would like to see how a good clean tack is done with a wheel. I can't do it.

Stu Jackson · Jan 16, 2016

Not really, just differing points of view. That's what it's all about. Jack and druid are both very, very experienced, knowledgeable and willing to share. That's GOOD!

JohnVTX · Jan 16, 2016

Stu Jackson said:
Not really, just differing points of view. That's what it's all about. Jack and druid are both very, very experienced, knowledgeable and willing to share. That's GOOD!

Agreed, it is a matter of preference and what you are most comfortable with. I hated standing with a tiller between my legs. Main sheet when I did that was behind me, didn't like that. Current set up with wheel on 30, when tacking I stand in front of wheel. All sheets are accessible. When running I sit beside wheel and get to all mainsheets and traveler with ease.

Jackdaw · Jan 16, 2016

Stu Jackson said:
Not really, just differing points of view. That's what it's all about. Jack and druid are both very, very experienced, knowledgeable and willing to share. That's GOOD!

Totally. This is a great discussion. Plus 95% of what I learn here on SBO occurs after some sort of so-called 'thread drift'. If this thread stayed totally focused on Single Handing a Catalina 250 it would be interesting to maybe 4 people! ;^)

Stu Jackson · Jan 16, 2016

markwbird said:
I would like to how a good clean tack is done with a wheel. I can't do it.

My experience (18 years now, after 15 with a tiller) is simple. You turn the wheel about a half turn, do the string thing, and turn the wheel back. I don't even bother using the wheel brake. Even when not racing, I'll drop the traveler first instead of having to pull it back up later (although I've got a 6:1 Garhauer setup). It's pretty easy once you get the hang of it, like everything else in life.

JohnVTX · Jan 16, 2016

Stu Jackson said:
My experience (18 years now, after 15 with a tiller) is simple. You turn the wheel about a half turn, do the string thing, and turn the wheel back. I don't even bother using the wheel brake. It's pretty easy once you get the hang of it, like everything else in life.

Same system works for me with one exception. I put a little tension on the brake to keep it from turning more than I want. I like the "String Thing" term.

druid · Jan 16, 2016

What Stu Said (about tacking with a wheel). I've done it with both a tiller and a wheel thousands of times, and I prefer the wheel. As for "mainsheet access" - as I said, it's RIGHT THERE if you stand in front of the wheel.
As for "pro sailors.... choose tillers 100% of the time" - I had no idea I could make money single-handed sailing. Oh wait: a guy gave me $100 for moving his boat up the coast, which I did single-handed. So I'm a "pro sailor"! And I prefer a wheel, so your statement is false.

A few other points: In the Single-handed races I've been in (many), I'd say over 90% of the entrants were wheel-steered (the exceptions being very small boats or moderate-sized out-and-out racers). And many of these entrants had their choice of boats to use, presumably some with tillers.
Which brings me to my next point: it's almost impossible to BUY a tiller boat unless it's a day-sailer or racing boat. So where are all these "pro sailors" getting all these tiller boats?
Back to the actual topic: Single-handing a Catalina 25. I do notice in the pic the wheel is FAR back in the cockpit, so even in front of it you'd have to reach (a bit) to get to the mainsheet/traveller, and any lines you have on the cabin-top. For all I've said about preferring a wheel, I think ON A BOAT THAT SMALL, a tiller is probably a better choice. Not specifically for single-handing, but just for general cockpit-logic reasons.

druid

Stu Jackson · Jan 16, 2016

druid said:
Single-handing a Catalina 25.

Only quibble is that it's a Catalina 250, completely different boat and cockpit layout.

But you knew that, right?

druid · Jan 16, 2016

Ok, "25ft Catalina", OK?

druid

JohnVTX · Jan 17, 2016

Catalanc, Don't take our discussions as a poo poo to your wanting the 25. I have had a Catalina 25 old model and loved the room in it. Got out of sailing for awhile and back into a 21 foot Sirius, almost identical to a Catalina 22. Only lasted 5 months before I couldn't stand the headroom. Moved into a Catalina 30. I think that 25 would be a great purchase for what you are looking for. Keep in mind, the only time you spend behind the wheel, instead of beside it or in front of it will be when you are docking and undocking. If you are not planning on a bunch of SERIOUS racing there are really no issues with the wheel. It is a great boat.

Jackdaw · Jan 17, 2016

druid said:
What Stu Said (about tacking with a wheel). I've done it with both a tiller and a wheel thousands of times, and I prefer the wheel. As for "mainsheet access" - as I said, it's RIGHT THERE if you stand in front of the wheel.
As for "pro sailors.... choose tillers 100% of the time" - I had no idea I could make money single-handed sailing. Oh wait: a guy gave me $100 for moving his boat up the coast, which I did single-handed. So I'm a "pro sailor"! And I prefer a wheel, so your statement is false.
A few other points: In the Single-handed races I've been in (many), I'd say over 90% of the entrants were wheel-steered (the exceptions being very small boats or moderate-sized out-and-out racers). And many of these entrants had their choice of boats to use, presumably some with tillers.
Which brings me to my next point: it's almost impossible to BUY a tiller boat unless it's a day-sailer or racing boat. So where are all these "pro sailors" getting all these tiller boats?
Back to the actual topic: Single-handing a Catalina 25. I do notice in the pic the wheel is FAR back in the cockpit, so even in front of it you'd have to reach (a bit) to get to the mainsheet/traveller, and any lines you have on the cabin-top. For all I've said about preferring a wheel, I think ON A BOAT THAT SMALL, a tiller is probably a better choice. Not specifically for single-handing, but just for general cockpit-logic reasons.

druid

OK, its now clear that we are talking about different things.

Yes, some people get paid to race single handed. Some are sponsored. and some just are enthusiastic non-pros. It might be hard for you to believe, but these people actually buy boats designed expressly for solo sailing and racing. Like the Sunfast 3600, Like the Beneteau Figaro 2, Like the JPK 10.80. Like the Pogo3 Class40. Like the Seascape 27. Never heard of these? Shall I go on? And they are all tillered for reasons I mentioned.

How about the new J/boat J11s? J/boats wants to make a short-handed/solo-sailor version of the wheel driven J111 buoy racer and what do they do? First thing, give it a tiller. Indeed this vid from Yachting Today reviewing the J11s gives a nice background into the world of boats designed for single handing. Have a look.

This racing is done at a level way beyond your 'run-what-you-brung' race with guys driving 30 year old cruisers. Do you really think these people that kind of race had a choice on the type of steering that boat had? 90% of their boats only came with wheels, and 90% of those were bought used. Its just what that had. So you make do. I'm 100% good with that, but lets please not confuse that for what what is actually best. I'm talking about a world where people spend money to buy the best tool for the job. You're not. That's OK.

You sound kinda like a guy who brought his sedan to SCCA road race, and then trying to convince other drivers that skinny tires and front wheel drive is the best way to get around that track. Just because its all you know and its what you have, does not make it better.

Jackdaw · Jan 17, 2016

catalanc said:
Thanks, John. I spent many an hour on the Chaparral forum when I had my powerboat(s) so I know very well how these things go. That said, very informative discussion. Major issue for me is that I purchased (and sold) five power boats in the span of 6 years; a bit of a sore subject with the Admiral. I will probably "lay low" with the 22 for a while, for what should be obvious reasons. Can always dream, though ...
carlos

I'd say you've got her loosened up! ;^)

I've owned both the C22 and the (original) C25, both are nice boats as entry level pocket cruisers. The newer C250 has tons of room inside and that often appeals to a non-sailing partner. The extra bulk and windage can make it more tricky to dock solo, but its all manageable with a bit of practice.

Skipper · Jan 17, 2016

Without reading all posts:
C250 wing keel was my first sailboat, transitioning from powerboats.
I'll just say that is was a perfect learning boat. Easy to sail, simple gear, forgiving, great accommodations - I mean , it's a 25 footer and still has a queen aft berth :-0
And it was light so good water speed. The boat is tender, with light ballast. Less ballast than it's predecessor the 25. Jumpy in chop. Not great for rough seas. Fair weather is great fun and safe.
Beam is narrow, so fantastically easy to tack. All lines aft. I had a tiller on that boat, but now have a pedestal on current boat, so I just come out in front of the helm after cranking the wheel, do the tacking with the lines, and steer backwards.
Practice it. You'll see it's not difficult.

Meriachee · Jan 17, 2016

Jackdaw said:
run-what-you-brung

Ok, thank you very much, I will..

The trick is to intimately know what you brung can do, how to make it do the best it can do, and do it tactically better than the phrf would suggest, but, not so much better that they change the numbers on you.
Having a set of controls that you can see but can't get to is useless. That has nothing to do with a wheel or a tiller. By way of example, we spent a ridiculous amount of time reworking the main-sheet controls on the 270. The factory design of typing up a winch is an unacceptable solution for us. Having a winch available for use is necessary. The design and mounting spot for the rear winch option is maybe not the most crew friendly spot, but it's a far better solution than no secondary winches, when the option of staring at the main and thinking for a second that it might be too much work is absolutely unacceptable. When you can give boats in a faster class cause to sharpen their pencils, then it was worth getting out of bed.

None of this applies to the original discussion, but relates to single handing. If the setup on the boat doesn't work for you, change it. If you're going to single hand, the controls need to be accessible, and if you have to "go someplace" to do something, then you need a way of taming the steering. The tools you have at hand, tiller or wheel really don't matter in this conversation, the boat has a wheel. How do you make that work to your best advantage?
(and ya, Jack, it's a pretty cool sled, can I have one for my birthday?) (How about just the main?)