Single Handing a Catalina 250

Meriachee · Jan 15, 2016

Depends on a number of factors, does it have an autopilot and what is your experience level?

Stu Jackson · Jan 15, 2016

Hardest thing singlehanding is docking. The 250 is a great boat and if you use the "Dock-O-Matic" midships springline developed by Randy Kolb it'll be a cakewalk.

Go here:

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5445.msg33766.html#msg33766

read the link near the bottom of the post, and then go here:

http://catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=4

Great boats, great skippers, great website there, too, many of us do that and this one, too.

Good luck.

Jackdaw · Jan 16, 2016

Stu is correct, the hardest general thing you will do is dock.

But your assessment is correct, that boat with a wheel is kinda silly and it makes single handing much harder than it needs to be. Unless an AP is driving, you must sit at the transom, with the main sheet and the sheet winches many feet away at the bridge deck or father.

The cockpit was set up for ease of moving around, and not sailing ease.

JohnVTX · Jan 16, 2016

If you spent some money to run the Genoa sheets back to the coamings close to the wheel like this boat you would be fine.

Jackdaw · Jan 16, 2016

JohnVTX said:
View attachment 118846 If you spent some money to run the Genoa sheets back to the coamings close to the wheel like this boat you would be fine.

A great idea when possible. How did you get the Genoa sheet back there from the tracks on the cabin top? A quick look shows no really good way to get a fair run and end up with a correct approach angle to the winch.

JohnVTX · Jan 16, 2016

Jackdaw said:
A great idea when possible. How did you get the Genoa sheet back there from the tracks on the cabin top? A quick look shows no really good way to get a fair run and end up with a correct approach angle to the winch.

Not my boat jack. Just found photo on internet. Do not know how he got from tracks to coaming. only photo of end result.

Jackdaw · Jan 16, 2016

JohnVTX said:
Not my boat jack. Just found photo on internet. Do not know how he got from tracks to coaming. only photo of end result.

Gotcha. I'm guessing those are spin sheet winches... Our First 260 has a similar set for spin use. But getting the Genoa sheets back there is very problematic.

Siamese · Jan 16, 2016

Wow, it looks like when Catalina got done making it ugly, they got serious about making it difficult to single-hand. Brilliant! Not only are the jib winches in an awkward place, but the mainsheet looks like it would also be difficult to use from behind the wheel. If you wanted to quickly spill wind from the main, it looks like you'd have to get down to the level of the cockpit sole to snap the sheet loose. Ugh.

On a 25 foot boat, it's really pretty lame that they don't accommodate single handing.

markwbird · Jan 16, 2016

Actually, Single handing is MUCH easier with a tiller rather than wheel steering. With a tiller you can stand in the cockpit with the tiller between your legs and both hands free to handle the sheets. Nearly impossible to handle the sheets from behind a wheel.

Jackdaw · Jan 16, 2016

markwbird said:
Actually, Single handing is MUCH easier with a tiller rather than wheel steering. With a tiller you can stand in the cockpit with the tiller between your legs and both hands free to handle the sheets. Nearly impossible to handle the sheets from behind a wheel.

Don't think you'll find much disagreement there. EVERY serious single-handing boat has a tiller. Every one.

Stu Jackson · Jan 16, 2016

Jackdaw said:
EVERY serious single-handing boat has a tiller. Every one.

'Cept mine.

Aw, c'mon, Jack.

JohnVTX · Jan 16, 2016

No issues single handing my 30 with wheel

Jackdaw · Jan 16, 2016

Stu Jackson said:
'Cept mine.

Aw, c'mon, Jack.

Why did I know I'd get that back?? ;^)

Oh I totally agree that people seriously solo boats with wheels, and also do so in all types of boats. I was talking of course about boat that were DESIGNED for short handed sailing. When you do this, you design controls that work with the solo sailor, not against them. At its best this ends up being a ground-up approach where the nature of solo-sailing is baked into every part of the boat.

For a view on what that looks like now, watch this vid. Like the Pogo I've been on a SF3600 many times, and its a brilliant boat. The designer had a full-size mock-up of the cockpit built in his office, so he could continually refine the design. It shows.

JohnVTX · Jan 16, 2016

Jackdaw said:
Why did I know I'd get that back?? ;^)

Oh I totally agree that people seriously solo boats with wheels, and also do so in all types of boats. I was talking of course about boat that were DESIGNED for short handed sailing. When you do this, you design controls that work with the solo sailor, not against them. At its best this ends up being a ground-up approach where the nature of solo-sailing is baked into every part of the boat.

For a view on what that looks like now, watch this vid. Like the Pogo I've been on a SF3600 many times, and its a brilliant boat. The designer had a full-size mock-up of the cockpit built in his office, so he could continually refine the design. It shows.

Great boat Jack, but most of us cannot afford to go that route. Most buy older used boats and retro-fit them to single hand. Many are better designed for that than others, but can be done effectively with allot of wheeled, as well as tiller controlled boats.

Meriachee · Jan 16, 2016

Jackdaw said:
Why did I know I'd get that back?? ;^)

To expect less from this crowd is tempting fate.

druid · Jan 16, 2016

I'm not sure why you think a wheel makes it hard to single-hand: I've single-handed all my boats and if anything the wheel is easier cuz you can lock it in place (as opposed to tying the tiller). You do know that you don't HAVE to stand behind the wheel to use it? I'm usually sitting on the coaming beside the wheel, somewhat in front of it, or standing in front of it and reaching behind me to steer.
And AP definitely makes single-handing easier, but it's not hard without one. Biggest Thing is to run all your running rigging back to the cockpit. I assume you'd have roller furling on the headsail - that can be done from the cockpit (yes, with a wheel!). You can raise the main from the cockpit if you set it up first, but you'll have to go forward to drop it and stow it on the boom (use a harness and jacklines!). And use a "midships line" to dock: get control of the middle of the boat and you have control of the boat.

druid

Stu Jackson · Jan 16, 2016

druid said:
You do know that you don't HAVE to stand behind the wheel to use it?

Yes, yes, yes. I'm of the opinion that being a slave behind the wheel is counterproductive to running our boat. Covered in the links I provided in reply #3.

Jackdaw said:
Why did I know I'd get that back?? ;^)

Oh I totally agree that people seriously solo boats with wheels, and also do so in all types of boats. I was talking of course about boat that were DESIGNED for short handed sailing.

OK, Jack, sure you knew it was comin', right?

You're correct about new boat design. Mine's from 1986, similar to the venerable C30 which was somewhat older, but a "traditional" layout: wheel, cabintop traveler & mainsheet winch, jib sheet winches mid-cockpit (not aft). I've mentioned before that moving the jib sheet winches aft is counterproductive to having crew, since they simply can't tail the jib sheet winches back there. Oh, wait: the helmsperson goes to sit in front of the wheel to give the trimmers room. Got it now!

Jackdaw · Jan 16, 2016

druid said:
I'm not sure why you think a wheel makes it hard to single-hand: I've single-handed all my boats and if anything the wheel is easier cuz you can lock it in place (as opposed to tying the tiller). You do know that you don't HAVE to stand behind the wheel to use it? I'm usually sitting on the coaming beside the wheel, somewhat in front of it, or standing in front of it and reaching behind me to steer.
And AP definitely makes single-handing easier, but it's not hard without one. Biggest Thing is to run all your running rigging back to the cockpit. I assume you'd have roller furling on the headsail - that can be done from the cockpit (yes, with a wheel!). You can raise the main from the cockpit if you set it up first, but you'll have to go forward to drop it and stow it on the boom (use a harness and jacklines!). And use a "midships line" to dock: get control of the middle of the boat and you have control of the boat.

druid

Well OK, I'll take a crack at this too.

I never said it was hard. I said that a tiller on a short handed boat is simply better and easier. And that's why all (yes ALL) sailboat designed in the last 20+ years with shorthanded ambitions have been tiller boats.

So if you still disagree with that point, my first question is, what are you basing your opinion on? Do you have an real experience in short or single handing a mid-to-large keel boat with a tiller?

I do, thousands of miles in both wheel and tiller boats, and my experience says that the designers are right, that tillers are simply better than wheel when short handing. And remember that my big boat (the First 36.7 is a wheel boat). I'm not being a snob about this; anyone who knows me knows I'm very pragmatic when it comes to design considerations in boats. And it not just my opinion. All of the Vendee boats, all the Class 40, all the Figaros, and the Minis are tiller boats. And trust me if François Gabart wanted wheels on his boat, he's get them.

But why?
Driving position is MUCH more comfortable, and you can be very wide on beam to maximize your value as movable ballast; key while short handing. You can sit in a natural position and drive for hours if need be. The 36.7 has a huge wheel and you can get wide, but the driving motion with the wheel is not nearly as natural or as comfortable as with a tiller.

You can also get a great positional relationship with the mainsheet and traveler, which is key for performance/safe sailing. For most if not all the respondents here so far, this value gets lost because your traveler is no where near you to start!

In addition, the mechanism is MUCH less complex; with no chains or wheels to slip, break or fail.

Yes you get to use the AP, and I too use it a lot, but you still end up with long stretches at the helm, either because of conditions or because of race/performance considerations. When you need that, a tiller is better.

druid · Jan 16, 2016

Yes, Jack, I have a "little" experience single-handing both tiller and wheel boats. About 5 years with a Venture 22 (tiller), 5 on a Cal 25 (tiller), 17 on a Catalina 36 (wheel with AH), 5 on a Crown 28 (wheel with AH), and about 4 on an Ontario 32 (wheel, no AH). That's... I donno... probably a hundred thousand miles if I was to add it all up. I sometimes had "guests" aboard but usually I sailed the boat myself anyway. Oh, and I've been in the Nanaimo Single-Handed Race about 10 times, often not doing too badly as a Cruiser against Racers.

I've had no trouble reaching sheets, traveller, halyards, etc. on a boat with a wheel. As I've said: I pretty much sit in exactly the same position with a wheel that I do with a tiller. And if I DO want to go somewhere beyond the reach of the wheel, I find it easier to lock the wheel than lash the tiller. It is MARGINALLY easier to use a sheet and bungee as a "poor man's autohelm" with a tiller, but it can be done with a wheel as well (but usually not necessary if you balance the boat right).

"Driving position"? Why is it less comfortable with a wheel? As I said, I normally sit on the coaming beside the wheel, same place as I would be with a tiller. For tacking (for instance) I will stand in front of the wheel so I can access the sheets, traveller, etc, reaching behind me to move the wheel when I need to. With a tiller, I would have the tiller between my legs while I did the ropework: not as easy or comfortable as the wheel, which tends to stay in the same place even if it's not locked.

But when I'm not racing I don't normally bother with the traveller, nor do I worry about where I sit wrt boat balance. I think a lot of what you're talking about has to do with racing, and I think most people agree that a tiller IS better for racing. But not for single-handing, imho.

druid