Short handed. The wave of the future.

Discussion in 'Ask All Sailors' started by Jackdaw, Nov 29, 2018. Add this thread to a FAQ

  1. jon hansen

    jon hansen

    Joined May 25, 2012
    2,093 posts, 1,815 likes
    john alden caravelle 42
    us sturgeon bay, wis
    as in bulldog, not greyhound
     


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  2. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    10,246 posts, 3,263 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    The Pogos and Firsts have lifting keels. Deep and stable when at sea, shoal when in bays or marinas. BlueJ has a lifting keel, we can’t get into if slip without it.
     


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  3. Scott T-Bird

    Scott T-Bird

    Joined Oct 26, 2008
    3,963 posts, 946 likes
    Starwind 27
    US Barnegat, NJ
    It sounds like the article indicates that these boats really are focused on a racing market, even though they still want to push cruising. It indicates that the buyers typically have a particular "bucket list" race in mind when they are purchasing the boat. I'm wondering how this fits with some of the racing that casual racers do. Are the speeds high enough to cause carnage among the inexperienced? I think I'd be too intimidated to get into close quarters with similarly speedy, expensive boats to do this kind of thing on a recreational basis. Does this kind of boat create a wider gulf between hard-core racer types and the bulk of the others whom might just be out for the fun of it?

    I want to start racing my boat next year. I'm hoping that it will add some zest that Sue might enjoy. I've been talking to her about it. I can only see getting introduced into it with the small, conventional boat that we already have. I couldn't see buying one of these boats with the notion that we're going to get introduced into racing with it. Maybe after the bug takes a hold after a few years, if all goes well, I'd be interested if it were financially feasible …

    I could see going all out and buying one of these and getting into the thick of it if I were single. But that would be a totally different story.
     


  4. TomY

    TomY Alden Forum Moderator

    Joined Jun 22, 2004
    1,746 posts, 1,727 likes
    Alden 38' Challenger yawl
    US Rockport Harbor
    I hope this trend takes off. I can count on one hand the new production sailboats I've seen in the last 2-3 decades, sailing on the coast of Maine and NE.

    The last new notable 'racer/cruiser' was probably a Sabre 38(and they're gone as sailboats). I know the larger production builders have built many, but I haven't seen them here (not a judgement just an observation).

    The only other new builds I recall were a few of the medium sized J-boats. Like everything the J's were more from the Daysailing design style; the stye which has driven almost all custom, semi-custom boat building design in this area of the world. But despite many of the builders jumping into the Daysailer, they never hit production levels.

    I have not seen a Pogo or similar in the new planing boats. I like the concept but I have my doubts the 'racing' styling, is going to go mainstream.

    Good niche though for a popular sport right now.

    I hope I'm wrong.
     


  5. thinwater

    thinwater

    Joined Mar 26, 2011
    2,310 posts, 561 likes
    Corsair F-24 MK I
    US Deale, MD
    New boats always compete with used boats. One way to escape that cycle is to build something they can't buy used. Something different.

    I wouldn't want to cruise the Figaro 3, but I toured the boat in Annapolis and it looks like a LOT of fun. But totally austere inside. My F-24 has a more livable interior, and that's sayin' sumpthin'.
     


  6. Gunni

    Gunni

    Joined Mar 16, 2010
    5,943 posts, 1,489 likes
    Beneteau 411 Oceanis
    US Annapolis
    It was designed, built and equipped so that one person can sail it. Why do I think that? Because I sail it single-handed quite a bit, so, you know - "proof is in the puddin'.
    High initial form stability is not new, my 15 year old Finot design has plenty of beam aft. Doesn't have the chine, if that is what you are talking about, but trust me a chine is not a replacement for ballast (secondary stability) when the kimchee hits the fan.
    I can roll out a 155% - 90% headsail, and sail single-hand in winds to 35 knots balanced against a reefed mainsail.
    That is daysailing racer-style. Cruisers will lock the wheel or set the AP and go get a cup of jo. Rarely drive.
    Yeah, I rarely fly the kite when single-handing. I find that a 155 mast-head genoa gets the job done. But I keep looking at that Harken spinnaker roller furler and thinking...maybe.
    I have a problem with single-handers who don't stay on deck, standing their watch. In any case, my cockpit is plenty big for stretching out, and it has some other features the racers don't have - a nice big dodger, and bimini. Those cool twin wheels? They lop about 2 feet from your cockpit seating.
    I don't know what a "maneuvering winch" is, but I have a set either side of the companion way for all sail controls, and a set of primaries for the headsail next to the wheel. What I find more valuable for single-handing is oversized winches, much more valuable than twin wheels.
     


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  7. JRT

    JRT

    Joined Feb 14, 2017
    1,215 posts, 409 likes
    Catalina 310
    211 US Lake Guntersville, AL
    I assume the trickled down is seen in the Jeanneau Sun Odyssey new boats.
     


  8. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    10,246 posts, 3,263 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    I’m not gonna argue with you Gunni, I know you rightfully love your boat.

    But if you look at it, is IS a right down the middle-of-the-road medium-heavy weight displacement cruiser, ratios-wise. Single handling for long distances, you want as many of the controls close the companionway as possible. Because that’s were single handler Passage making spends 80% of his time, within 5 feet of the companionway door. That might mean Tillers on extensions, and the winches up there, and not back by the end of the boom where a Genoa lead would be. Partially furling a 150 is a poor solution compared to a non-overlapping Sail plan.

    Since this really took off about 10 years ago, a large percentage of French designs reflect these design considerations. It’s really a brave new thing, and you have to experience it to really understand it.
     


  9. Gunni

    Gunni

    Joined Mar 16, 2010
    5,943 posts, 1,489 likes
    Beneteau 411 Oceanis
    US Annapolis
    Yes sir, 11 tons ready to roll, hot and cold running everything! But Don S/V, Cook and TomY might argue that she's a bit of a light weight! I often have to remind my heavy displacement sailor buddies that she doesn't need much sail when the wind comes up. And we go faster when we go flat. But here's the thing - long distance for me is 600 miles or more. 50 miles is a day sail, and that is about all the longer I would want to be on one those "future of sailing" boats. I definitely would not take a chance with them rounding Cape Hatteras, and I suspect you would not either. So I go out, you go in, down the ditch and I'll wait for you at Beaufort with cold beer! Its a race, just different tools.
     


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  10. Charlie Jones s/v Tehani

    Charlie Jones s/v Tehani

    Joined Mar 1, 2012
    1,740 posts, 684 likes
    1961 Rhodes Meridian 25
    us Texas coast
    And foilers are few and far between. My ex was asked by a sailboat earlier to demo the Hobie tris. BUT due to our oyster bars, and shallow waters, Hobie would't let us have the trifoiler. And so we couildn't have the others too sail either
     


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  11. Charlie Jones s/v Tehani

    Charlie Jones s/v Tehani

    Joined Mar 1, 2012
    1,740 posts, 684 likes
    1961 Rhodes Meridian 25
    us Texas coast
    In one of their books, the Pardeys did research in Mexico about the Cabo St Lucas disaster during which Montessior lost Joshua. Their conclusion? small crews on large boats did not have the physical strength to deal with disasters of that nature. Boats with larger crews did ok, small boats with small crews did also.

    just something to consider
     


  12. Will Gilmore

    Will Gilmore

    Joined Oct 19, 2017
    4,671 posts, 2,625 likes
    O'Day 19
    US Littleton, NH
    With the possible exception of more exotic things like hydro foils, new cruisers often take successful elements of design from racers. How many new cruising boats have been built with full keels. What are the trends in width, bottom shape, chines, cabin and deck layouts for cruises? Where's the beam width located? How about rigging? these elements follow on the heels of races. It makes sense that the racer/cruiser Is the most popular designs. Partly it's the designers. They want to limit the offered models in a limited specialty market to boats that can be pushed upon multiple market segments. You want a racer? We have the boat for you. How about a cruiser? Our hulls have proven themselves on the race course. We have just upgraded the interior and added some automation to make cruising a breeze. If you like to cruise, but want a boat that lets them know who's boss on the race course, we have a version with all the amenities for cruising with lighter materials and more efficient high-end rigging tackle.
    One hull, multiple uses.

    Sometimes, it's not about what the market demands, it's what the market can get. That's why marketing research is often limited. When the research says more of A are selling, you have to ask, is that because the market wants A or is that just the best of a very limited set of options?

    -Will (Dragonfly)
     


  13. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    10,246 posts, 3,263 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    Not in the small ones of course, but I’d go around any cape on a pogo 12.5. Designed for that straight of the box. Thing is built to go around the world. Many have.
     


  14. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    10,246 posts, 3,263 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    While it’s very often true that designers and builders will use the same hull for both racing and then cruising boats, there almost always ends up being a compromise for the cruiser. Rating rules in fact penalize stability. They expect that you will have a crew on the rail to throw around to help stabilize the boat. Build it in, either with high initial stability or things like water balast or foils, and you get torched on your rating. So boats like the first 367 were very decent racers, but frankly a bit of a handful for couple when the wind got up.

    Very beamy boats like the new Firsts, or the Pogos generally suffer under most rating rules. That’s why most Pogos race on your class 40 one design. The J/121 will be interesting to watch, the water ballast is optional to use , and many might use it while cruising or short handed racing, but not when racing with a crew of five.
     


  15. danstanford

    danstanford

    Joined Aug 2, 2010
    266 posts, 40 likes
    Beneteau 323
    CA Cobourg
    Jackdaw, are we really sorting ourselves out into camps? It seems like the biggest change I have seen is the proliferation of cats for cruising and certainly for charter. I completely agree that as a monohull fan, and given a choice, I would pick a planning hull that I could race and weekend. Giving up a bit of creature comfort for tons more speed would be a no-brainer for me though I can short hand my boat any time I choose.
    For those looking for room and house like amenities, a cat does the trick pretty easily. So if you are a builder of boats, wouldn't you concentrate your efforts on the two ends of the market rather than trying to refine the compromises further? If so, fast fun monohulls would be an obvious opportunity since there are so few older used ones around.
    Sorry if I am just re-stating your point.
    Dan
     


  16. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    10,246 posts, 3,263 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    I can’t really say what started it, but the French been playing around with the ‘focus on function, less complicated’ interiors for about 20 years. Four boats in the Beneteau first ‘spirit’ line were dedicated to the principal in the late 90s. After the introduction of planning racing hull like the class 40, it seemed obvious to the builders that they could create that type of interior in the boat and not lose it speed potential. Simplify the rigs slightly and you got a great cruising boat. The things are tough as nails and actually quite easy to sail. The Pogos are actually very comfortable and roomy. The extra beam really creates space as does the lack of ornate furniture. What’s there is simply very functional.

    Catamarans are a great choice, but also a compromise. They are absolutely wonderful and charter fleets. But some of the compromises don’t lend well to ownership. Mooring is always a problem, the boats are not that Weatherly, and the dirty little secret is that unless you keep a light one very light, they’re not that fast!
     


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  17. thinwater

    thinwater

    Joined Mar 26, 2011
    2,310 posts, 561 likes
    Corsair F-24 MK I
    US Deale, MD
    The problem with most cats now is that they are designed for charter. They need to be comfortable at anchor, which they are. They are also fat, under-canvased, shallow draft, and as a result, about as weatherly as a square rigged trader.

    My last boat was a cruising cat, but not a charter model (souped-up PDQ). It could tack through 90-100 degrees and it was quite fast for a cruising boat; as much as 8 knots to weather and over 12 knots with the chute. Up-sized rig, stretched and faired keel, stretch hull. But is was still boring to sail. Well, maybe more fun than most cruising boats; double digits are always fun.

    My tri is even more weatherly, faster yet off the wind, and lots of fun to sail. But light tris fail with regard to accommodation space, and speed always requires some sailing skill; like planing boats, the rig has to be big enough to get you in trouble.

    I love the look of the Figaro 3. I sailed on a Seascape 24 and loved it. But I suspect if you weight them down and sail conservatively (not a racing crew) they become dogs, just like overloaded multis. Weatherly overloaded multis with a really deep draft.

    Interestingly, virtually NO multihulls are offered as stripped-out as this new generation. It's like they have headed in opposite directions, both trying to follow the market. And curiously, they may both be right.

    Perhaps one way to look at it is this; early multis had many weaknesses, because they were new, but much has been learned. I bet the same thing will happen here. But they will be competing with performance cruising multis, not charter boats. I'm anxious to see where it goes. They have great potential to deliver fun sailing for less money.
     


  18. Gunni

    Gunni

    Joined Mar 16, 2010
    5,943 posts, 1,489 likes
    Beneteau 411 Oceanis
    US Annapolis
    Maine Cat
    TomCat 970

    Amphibious:
    TomCat 6.6
     


  19. LeeandRick

    LeeandRick

    Joined Apr 26, 2015
    447 posts, 160 likes
    S2 26 Mid
    US On Trailer
    I can see these new designs selling very well in my parts... as soon as the cost of gasoline gets above $7 a gallon. The 40 year old's that come here from southern CA have no problem spending 2-3 hundred K for a new boat.
     


  20. Will Gilmore

    Will Gilmore

    Joined Oct 19, 2017
    4,671 posts, 2,625 likes
    O'Day 19
    US Littleton, NH
    I disagree. When a 40 something from S Cal can stand back and look at one of the new sailboats in the slip, picture a couple of girls in bikinis catching rays on the foredeck, and not be confused by what all those rope thingies and pole doohickies do, then they will consider buying the new sailboats.

    -Will (Dragonfly)
     




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