Shore power

Oct 3, 2014
261
Marlow-Hunter MH37 Lake City, MN
The rest of it, you two have pretty well hammered out. The use of a 50 to 30 amp connector is safe except for the portion of the run from the 50 amp outlet to the 30 amp breaker. If a short occurred in that area, then the undersized wires in that area would lack proper over current protection. I have seen twist lock adapters for generators that go from 30 amp male to 20 amp female, & have a 20 amp breaker built in, so somebody has already realized that this issue exists.

The fires that start at the corroded connectors can happen even when using a 30 amp plug in a 30 amp receptacle with a 30 amp breaker. Obviously, this issue is compounded when more amperage is available because once the plastic melts, you might also get a short in addition to resistance heating.
A short circuit in this cable would cause the 50A breaker to trip, unless that short, in addition to the load on the breaker, was under 50A. Most shorts in the cable would trip the 50A breaker nearly instantaneously.

That second bolded part...yes, absolutely! This is why there are now Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter (AFCI) breakers required for residential bedroom circuits.
 
Last edited:
Mar 26, 2011
3,414
Corsair F-24 MK I Deale, MD
I had a Neutral burn right off the crimp connector in the Nav Station. All factory wiring. As connections get loose from age and vibration, the amperage load increases across the same devices until it exceeds the 30 amp draw. Having 50 available amps is not a good idea when all the wiring is designed for 30 amps. It can't hurt to err on the side of safety. ;)
This is completely off the point. That crimp was after your 30 amp mains.

What is not fully protected is a fault in the cord and plug.
 

jviss

.
Feb 5, 2004
6,745
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
If I'm missing something, I welcome being corrected.
I think you have it right. I might emphasize, though, that circuit breakers cannot protect from every kind of fault. The breaker doesn't know if you are making heat or fire on purpose or not! That's why, as you point out, cords and connectors need be maintained in good, clean, low-resistance operating condition.
@Maine Sail posted a rave for Smartplug a while back, and talked about their thermal-sensing shutdown circuit. However now no mention of this can be found (by me) on their website. Perhaps they have dropped it. I though it was a great idea.
 
Aug 22, 2017
1,609
Hunter 26.5 West Palm Beach
...
That second bolded part...yes, absolutely! This is why there are now Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter (AFCI) breakers required for residential bedroom circuits.
I'm not familiar with the AFCI system. If you have a spare minute, would you mind giving me a quick description of their purpose & function?

Thanks,
Jim
 
Aug 22, 2017
1,609
Hunter 26.5 West Palm Beach
...
What's left for discussion is a condition which occurs on the cord which will be higher than the cords 30A rating, but too low for the 50A breaker to trip. A loose connection will create heat as @JimInPB states, but that increase in resistance will decrease the current, not increase, so I'm not sure that even a 30A breaker at the shore power pedestal would trip in that case. All I can think of which would cause there to be current greater than 30A, but less than 50A on the cord is parallel arcing, such as if the jacket and insulation were cut and there was a high resistance fault from the cord to something else. This is why you should inspect your cord on a regular basis, if not every time.

If I'm missing something, I welcome being corrected.
I'm thinking that if you had nearly a full load being pulled on the 30 amp breaker (AC running all night) & the upstream cord between the 30 amp breaker & the 50 amp feed was a little frayed & wet (maybe hanging overboard), you might get some additional loading that was not a complete short. If the 50 amp feed were an older type that didn't have ground fault protection, the 50 amp breaker might not trip. If this situation lasted overnight, that might well be long enough to heat up the 10 ga wires to an undesirable temperature.
 
Aug 22, 2017
1,609
Hunter 26.5 West Palm Beach
I have a 2005 Hunter 33. My boat uses 30 amp power cord and at my marina that is what the power supplies. What happens if I go to a different marina during the day for a stop and I want to use the power supplied their but it is 50 amp? Can I use my 30 amp power cord? Can I use the 50 amp supplied or will it damage my batteries, electric board, etc? Thank you

Mike J
Ripple
Well, back to the original question...
Your batteries & electronics would not be in danger. There is a small risk that you might have a problem after the 50 amp outlet & before the 30 amp breaker on your boat. Although it is unlikely that you will have trouble doing that with equipment that is in good condition, if a problem does happen, the consequences can include a boat fire. This somewhat unsafe practice is in frequent use in many places that I have visited. Lots of people take this risk. Lots of people J-walk too. Now & then a few of them get hit by a car. It sounds like uncledom has the fix in the works for the known risk that does exist. I have not yet heard him say that it is available to the public at this time.

The bullet proof solution is to install a second feed for your boat that is designed to connect to a 50 amp outlet so that you will now have both 30 & 50 amp feed options with correct wiring. The adapter is a second best solution with a limited, but not inconsequential, amount of risk involved.
 
Oct 3, 2014
261
Marlow-Hunter MH37 Lake City, MN
  • Like
Likes: JimInPB

jviss

.
Feb 5, 2004
6,745
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
I had a Neutral burn right off the crimp connector in the Nav Station. All factory wiring. As connections get loose from age and vibration, the amperage load increases across the same devices until it exceeds the 30 amp draw. Having 50 available amps is not a good idea when all the wiring is designed for 30 amps. It can't hurt to err on the side of safety. ;)
This doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Perhaps I'm missing something. Part if it is the use of seemingly hokey terminology, like "amperage load" and "amperage draw." What does that mean? When connections get loose the resistance increases. When that happens, for a fixed voltage the current will decrease. Now, the connection will warm up due to the higher resistance, dissipating P=I^2R by conduction to the wire and atmosphere. The thermal resistance to the adjacent copper and atmosphere will determine how fast this junction heats up and to what temperature, and if hot enough will melt things, perhaps even itself. I don't see how "the amperage load increases across the same devices until it exceeds the 30 amp draw."
 
Oct 3, 2014
261
Marlow-Hunter MH37 Lake City, MN
So are we clear yet, that the only risk we're talking about which could possibly occur, for which you wouldn't be protected for using a 30A cord with a cheater on a 50A receptacle, is the rare instance where:

Current through the boat's breaker is less than 30A, and
Current through the pedestal breaker is greater than 30A, but less than 50A
so somewhere between the two breakers a non-shorted path (i.e. arcing) for current exists.

Poor connections shouldn't be part of the discussion. While they are certainly a fire risk, they decrease current, not increase.
Short circuits shouldn't be part of the discussion because the 50A breaker will trip.
Overloads shouldn't be part of the discussion because the 30A breaker will trip.
A 50A receptacle cannot force greater current into your boat's electrical system. Your load, and faults, determine the current.

I'm not saying the risk is zero, but I am saying it's pretty darn small.

For the sake of simplicity I'm ignoring the fact that, as @uncledom correctly states, a breaker doesn't trip at XX + 0.01 but at some point greater as defined by the breaker's time-current curve. By the same token, a 30A cord won't start melting at 30+0.01 amps.

@jviss is this the SmartPlug you're talking about? It looks like it's protecting against poor connections and corrosion.
http://smartplug.com/marine/
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes: heritage

jviss

.
Feb 5, 2004
6,745
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
@jviss is this the SmartPlug you're talking about? It looks like it's protecting against poor connections and corrosion.
http://smartplug.com/marine/
Yes, it is. But I don't agree fully with your analysis. You can also have an unsafe condition with current less than both 30A and 50A; and, poor connections generate heat, and are probably the number one cause of electrically started boat fires.
 
Oct 3, 2014
261
Marlow-Hunter MH37 Lake City, MN
Yes, it is. But I don't agree fully with your analysis. You can also have an unsafe condition with current less than both 30A and 50A; and, poor connections generate heat, and are probably the number one cause of electrically started boat fires.
Absolutely! I agree totally. My point is that in that situation neither the 30A nor the 50A breaker will trip so that scenario is not germane to question about using a 30A cord on a 50A receptacle. Unsafe? Sure, but connecting the cord to a 50A receptacle doesn't make it any more unsafe. It's a separate issue.
 
  • Like
Likes: jviss
Aug 22, 2017
1,609
Hunter 26.5 West Palm Beach
So are we clear yet, that the only risk we're talking about which could possibly occur, for which you wouldn't be protected for using a 30A cord with a cheater on a 50A receptacle, is the rare instance where:

Current through the boat's breaker is less than 30A, and
Current through the pedestal breaker is greater than 30A, but less than 50A
so somewhere between the two breakers a non-shorted path (i.e. arcing) for current exists.
...
I don't know about anybody else, but I'm good with that.
 

walt

.
Jun 1, 2007
3,511
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
I think the conclusion here was that because you have a functioning 30 amp breaker system in the boat, the risk of a problem from using a 30 amp extension cord plugged into a 50 amp service is at least reduced.

I waded through the IEEE article on AFCI and thought that this was very interesting - here is the link again http://combinationafci.com/resources/doc_ieee_combination_afci.pdf

Lots of interesting stuff but I start with a couple snips. There is a section in there on how shorts in the AC wiring should have blown a fuse but didnt

"The conditions when the two conductors of a cord come in contact, as the result of cord overheating or insulation damage, are significantly different. In this case the wires, once they make contact, can move apart by normal magnetic forces. The typical fault current and voltage for such an event, shown in Fig. 3 " Results were that the current pulsing creates a lot of heat but not enough RMS current to blow the fuse or that it takes too long to blow the fuse.

Another really interesting thing in there is the Glowing contact section

"The test is disturbingly simple to perform, thus adding support to the claim that glowing contacts are a serious home wiring hazard. A length of AWG 14 solid copper wire is looped around a wire-binding screw of an electrical receptacle. The screw was not tightened, so the loop was loose. A 15A resistive load was plugged into the receptacle. The loop was then manipulated so that loop-screw connection could be jiggled to create a make/break arcing action. The arcing was not continuous, but rather more a series of sparks. After typically a minute of jiggling, the loop will adhere to the screw, at which time the jiggling is terminated. In about 30 seconds the connection will begin to glow the color of a toaster’s coil; thus the name"

The section on Glowing contacts in VIII - really interesting regarding a mechanism that can start a fire and not blow a fuse and it just involves a loose or corroded connection. Scary for in a home but a home doesnt experience the vibration and constant movement that a boat does that could tend to aid loose connections. And of course the more corrosive environment around salt water.

Makes me wonder about AFCI and boats.. GFCI is great for human safety but makes me wonder how effective the old standard fusing and earth ground system is for AC boat fires. I had never even heard about AFCI until this thread..

Google found this so I dont know how accurate but its some stats on what caused boat fires. Link https://mija.com/blog/140-boat-fire-causes/ Some quotes from this link

DC Electrical – 35% of fires are caused by problems with the 12 volt DC electrical system
Off Boat Sources – 25% of boat fires start from fires that are not even on the boat. (like a boat next to you burning up and catching your boat on fire)
AC Electrical – 17% of fires are caused by AC electrical problems.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes: plenny7
Oct 22, 2014
21,098
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
DC Electrical – 35% of fires are caused by problems with the 12 volt DC electrical system
And here I thought a DC system was safe... Mr. Edison, why have you forsaken me,,,,