Shoal draft vs. deep keel

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MArk

Horizontal lift?

Hey Yawl, The keel/fin IS a lifting body. The "lift" is horizontal to counter the sideward push of the wind. (That's why pie pans can't sail upwind.) As Sam stated earlier, the lift is due to the angle of attack. The horizontal cross-sectional shape of the fin prevents turbulence which would reduce this lift. Any fin keel (as any part of a boat) is a compromise. Your boat would sail faster downwind without one (like when I pull up my centerboard!). A square shaped one is best when sailing crosswind. A deep, thin one is best for sailing upwind. A forward swept keel (and some wing-keels) tends to collect seaweed which also increases drag. See the related article: Happy sails _/), (and New Year!) MArk
 
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Robert

Mars Metal and Us

To Alan and All. I made contact with the Keel King at MM and he is more than happy to address our need for a new custom made fin keel for the HL 35/35.5. He made a quick run on their files for info re: the 1996 custom keel for Alan. No luck. For Alan. Would you contact MM at this email address and provide them with a bit more info. The were unable to turn anything up with just your first name and a HL 35 keel in their 1996 files. The eamil address is this: pfreudigeger@marmetal.com I indicated to MM that we were looking for a buy of five MM custom fin keels for racing. purposes. Pending their receipt of the info from Alan and a serious look by MM at a pricing quote, it could well be to our benefit to take the next step in this project. Robert
 
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Alan

My keel stuff

My apologies to all you waiting on my keel info. What with the holidays and my sons basketball games all over the place, I didn't know whether I was coming or going. But now I will get to work and contact the Mars boys so that they will know what we're all after.
 
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Robert Dean

MM keel info

To Alan and All Had an email from the Keel King at MM. Seems they found Alan's 1996 keel package. According to the KK the project manager in 1996 was the owner (Mr Mars ??). He will be back on Monday. Have a good week end - go Miami. Robert
 
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Robert Dean

Mars Keel update

To Alan and All, Talked with Mars Metal today and they are in need of a picture of Alan's keel: if there is one available. Seems the cast (mold) or die of the keel that was used in early 1996 for Alan's keel may or may not still be in MM storage. These dies are made out of a ceramic material. They are big, heavy and may have been destroyed. MM believes that if they can see a picture of their 1996 keel, some one may recognize it. MM hopes they may still have the mold in storage. In any case, we still have interest in this projectg at MM. I hope the Hunter sailors on this thread are still interested in the purchase of a custom built (full) fin keel for racing etc. We need five owners to make the effot worth while. I'll keep all posted. Robert
 
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Rodger

Im interested

I'm interested in a fin keel if it draws less then 6ft. Keep us posted.
 
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Alan

My Keel

Well, I've finally found the drawings of my keel that I got from MM in '96. I'm still looking for the photos that we took when the truck arrived and during the instalation process. I've included one of the drawings with basic dimentions.
 

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Eric Jones

Bolt holes?

Alan, My H34 shoal draft is cast iron. Is yours? If so, how did you drill/cut/etc. the bolt holes to attach the lead? Cast is kind of hard, but there must be a way.
 
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Alan

Bolt holes

I have a Legend 35.5, but the keels are mounted the same way. The keel bolts come through the bottom of the keel stub and large washers and nuts are bolted on in the keel sump. To remove the old keel you must unbolt all the keel bolts then using a sawsall or other cutting machine, from the outside, cut between the keel stub and iron keel. The H34 keel is iron and the Legend keels are all lead, but you're not cutting the iron but the bonding material between the iron and glass An update on Mars Metal; I spoke to Kevin, the president of MM, He was the one who put my keel together. They have the drawings of my keel, but may have destroyed the mold. However, they are willing to build another mold and if enough people are interested, the expense for the new mold will be spread among the buyers. By the way MM is now the keel manufacturer for Hunter.
 
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Robert

Mars Keel

Talked with MM today and they are still on track to provide a price quote for the casting and pour of a new performance kell for the HL 35/35.5. MM is still not sure if the 1996 casting is still around. Waiting on the pictures of their 1996 keel to help find it in their keel casting bone yard. We need more people to step up and indicate an interst level in a new performance fin keel for the HL 35/35.5. So far we have only three by name. This is a quest for interest in this keel project. No hard "yes I will buy". Just a show of hands as to who would like to hear more. RD
 
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Mark F. Arena

Anybody wanna swap keels?

I have a 84H34 with the fin keel. I will be sailing to Lake Superior via Erie and Huron this summer, then on down to the Keys and Bahamas. The shoal draft keel would come in handy whilst cruising. I might be willing to swap keels with someone on my route (Michiganders note) if my layover wasn't too long. If interested, e-mail moi at mfarena@adelphia.net. Maybe we can work out a mutually satisfactory deal here.
 
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Robert Dean

HL 35/35.5 KEEL UPDATE

To All, Received a price quote from Mars Metal for two possibly three options to develop the HL 35/35.5 performance keel. Need to know if we still have a small group interested in this effort. Pricing seems fair - if we can spread the cost of design and the work up of the keel form aross a group buy. Individual keel pricing includes an allowance for the return of the old keel to MM. A performance keel from MM may or may not require a new cast. If we have enough in the group it will be worth it to have MM design and cast a new performance keel for our beloved HL 35/35.5. If not MM sez they may have a form in stock that could be adapted to the HL 35/35.5 hull. In any case it now is a matter of numbers - ie number of owners interested in the purchase of a MM performance keel. Be back shortly with the MM quote. Robert
 
Jul 1, 1998
3,062
Hunter Legend 35 Poulsbo/Semiahmoo WA
Keel Particulars?

Robert - in your post you titled it 35/35.5 - Question #1: Do you know if the bolt patern for the keel the same on both boats? Question #2: Does anyone have any clue what a keel might cost? Even a $/pound comparison against a keel on a new boat?
 
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Robert Dean

Keel Questions

To John and all, As to the keel bolt pattern and if they are similar for the HL35 and HL35.5. I for one do not know if they are same/different. But I don't blieve it is a problem. However I noticed that you indicated in your post that it referred to a H34. Will a performance keel for a HL 35/35.5 fit a H34 or a HL37 and work - good question. If so we would have a much bigger ownership pool to draw from. As to the bolt patter: MM has indicated that they will need a plywood pattern of your bolt arrangement when they cast your keel. As to the cost of a new keel from Hunter - it may be a difficult itme to obtain. Hunter stopped building the 35.5 in 1995. MM has been in contact with Hunter Marine (Glen Henderson) and Hunter no longer has the drawings for the H35.5 keel. Seems they have moved their design center from Achula (small town near Gainsville, FL) to St Augustine and "cleaned house" of old drawings etc for the move. I have a clue as to the cost of a performance keel from MM. Their senior management has provided a cost quote to me. I will post their letter on this site shortly. Again it is a numbers game. If we have a group buy - we will get a group price. If not - I cannot afford a one of a kind buy of a new design of a performance keel from MM. Their is another option though - as outlined in the MM letter. Hope I have answered your questions. Robert
 
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Rodger

Fin Keel

The Hunter 34 was offered with a fin or shoal keel. The Legend 35.5's only were offered with SHoal. I do not think a H34 Keel will work on a 35.5, as they are very different boats (full vs frac rig, displacement, etc..). I'm still interested in a fin for my 35.5 if this all comes together.
 
Jul 1, 1998
3,062
Hunter Legend 35 Poulsbo/Semiahmoo WA
Some Old Information re Deep Keel

Came across an old copy of a post by Bob Campbell on 3/1/98 where he said: "I have a 1993 35.5 which came with a lead shoal keel. I purchased a deep six foot keel... The cost of the new keel after shipping and installation was about $6,000" which whould be a good indicatior of the scale of cost. Could not find the above message in the archives. Noticed that the new dates don't have the year in them. Exact title of original post was "Response to 3555 Iron Keels - Hunter 35.5 Keels". I would think that a handy person could do a lot of work oneself and leave the heavy lifting to the yard and save yard costs. I personally have the deep sockets and 3/4-inch drive tools to remove and replace the keel bolts (nuts). My keel bolts take 1-1/2" socket on the small bolts and 1-7/8" socket on the large bolts. Per Hunter, the torque on the large bolts is 400-ft.lbs. and the small ones I have written down (225?). Breaking the bond between the keel and the hull shouldn't be too much of a trick then contract with the yard to make the switch. The reason for the "34" vice "35.5" in my previous reply is that I didn't toggle down in the "relevant to" window - oops.
 
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Eric Swift

Keel Switch

Just a comment. In an interchange with Hunter about a year ago I asked the question about switching a shoal draft keel with a deep draft on a Hunter 34. The response I got back suggested there would be some difficulty separating the keel and hull since an adhesive was used on the H34. They felt that some glass would be lost and have to be replaced and faired.
 
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Robert Dean

New Keel Pricing

To All interested in a new keel I have received the pricing from Mars Metal for a new performance keel. The letter with the pricing info is posted on my web page - sailpensacola.com The link to the letter is in red ink on the lower left corner of that web page. The price for a new performance keel from MM or MarsKeel Technology to be exact, will run a little less than a $1.00 a pound. We, the Hunter keel group, wiil need to foot the bill for the design and the building of the pattern for the new performance keel at a cost of a little more than $4500. The more in the group purchase, the easier the burden. Say we get 5 new keels, it would be a little over $900 per person plus of course the purchase of the keel and the shipping of the keel to your boat yard. MKT has include in the purchase of the new performance keel an allownace for the return of your old keel to MKT in Ontario, Canada. That should solves that problem of what to do with the old keel. The design of the performance fin keel would favour the race boat. MKT sees a new fin keel design with help from Glen Henderson at Hunter. MKT also has an option to use a stock keel they have on hand that may fit our overall needs if a new design will not float. In any case, please contact Kevin Milne at Mars Keel directly by email or by phone if you are interested in a new performance keel or one from their stock keel inventory. We have been at this project for a few weeks now and Kevin is eager to get started. The first spring race will be here shortly. Trust we can generate enough interest and a group large enouth to make this project worth while. Robert
 
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Robert Dean

MKT Keel

This may be the last message in this thread. Talked with Mars Keel Technology a day or so ago. They report that they have not recevivec any calls or email messages to take the next step to sign up for a new MKT performance keel. As such we most probably will be going to plan B. That is, the use of an in-house keel mold that will meet the design requirements of a performance fin keel for the Hunter Legend 35/35.5 with out the expense of a new pattern and mold. If any one is intersted in this Plan B possibility please call Mars Keel and check in - phone number and email address are on my web page/letter. The cost for this keel will most probably be in the same range as the other - little less than $1.00US per pound. Bit odd that this project did not continue - thought we had a good base to work with. RD
 
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Alan

Mars Keel

Robert, I'm sure surprised to see that nobody is interested!! I can only say that the difference in sailing characteristics between the two keels is very dramatic. After sailing on "Blue Bayou",with the Mars fin, I would NEVER go back to the bulb wing thing. To have the sailing performance of a Jboat and the creature comforts of the 35.5 is a great combination that is hard to top. If I can be of any further help, let me know.
 
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