Shoal draft vs. deep keel

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Geoff

My case of twofootitis has flared up again recently so I'm looking to replace my older Newport 28 and have been considering two Hunter 34s, one a refit 83 shoal draft and the other an unkempt 87 deep keel (probably with the famous post /compression problem). Does anyone have any experience with the two keel configurations? Specifically does the shoal draft sacrifice much upwind performance compared with the deeper keel version. Is it enough to be a major performance factor in purchase consideration? (I understand the benefits, especially if one was thinking of "doing the ditch" southward or generally sailing in thin water). Any thoughts on the matter would be appreciated.
 
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Charlie

Shoal Draft

I have a shoal draft 85 Hunter 34. I motor a lot in the ditch and sail in thin water. For those conditions the shoal draft is priceless. I am giving up about 20 degrees to the other boats upwind but I think it is my fault and am going to get some professional help. A shoal draft will never point with the deep keel but they should do better than 20 degrees. Fair Winds and following seas.
 
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Mark F. Arena

20 degree drop seems about right.......

oh baby- I've sailed my '84 34 (fin) against an '83 34 (shoal). The shoal could'nt keep up going upwind (at all). If you are sensitive about upwind performance, stick with the fin. (I do run out of water once in a while, however) M
 
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John

Shoal may give most benefit

We cruise Lake Michigan from top to bottom for 4-5 weeks every year and our '85 H34 shoal was the only way we made it without clanking the keel for 5 years. We were pretty competetive with any other production boat as far as pointing and better than anything comparable or bigger speedwise. (much to our delight) We purchased a 380 this year and sure enough, with only 4 more inches of draft, we stuck it in the sand twice.
 
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Travis

Never Again

I have had my H34 deep draft for about 6 mos now and I have never been aground so much in my life. Don't get me wrong, I love my boat. She is fast good looking and very roomy, but I think I would like her even better if she drew 18 inches less water - go with the shoal draft.
 
Dec 2, 1999
15,184
Hunter Vision-36 Rio Vista, CA.
Based on the sailing grounds

Geoff: I think you need to determine what your sailing grounds are going to be. If your harbors have 6+ feet of water now you should be OKAY with a deep keel. If your harbors are under 5-6' now, you need to look at the shoal keel. No one is going to tell you that a shoal keel is going to sail better than the same boat with a deep keel. There are plenty of owners of H'34 with shoal keels that love the boats.
 
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DJ Dreyer

Ditch to Pensacola

I have an '84 34 deep draft and mainly keep her in the Chesapeake Bay. I can do all the gunk holing I want on the bay and only run aground when I screw up (and I have in wonderful fashion). The boat has been from Maine to Pensacola FL. ICW from Norfolk to Ft Lauderdale and I only touched (but did not stop) bottom twice, both my fault again. Went around and through the Keys to Tampa and offshore from Tampa to Pensacola. Questions to aks are: what are the depths at my marina and primary cruising ground? How much sailing do I really do vrs motoring? How close to shore do I want to be when I do eventually run aground (and you will, shoal or deep draft)?
 
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Don

My 2 cents.

Note there is a big difference in grounding and subsequently ungrounding a boat with the fin vs. wing keel (and let's face it, it's gonna happen with either sooner or later.) Big difference in how you work it off when it happens. Like DJ, I sail the Chesapeake plus the NC/SC coasts. I now have a 37.5 with the shoal/wing keel. Previously had a H31 with the deep keel. I have grounded both, but never seriously. Depending on the bottom surface where you sail, if you hit bottom the fin keel will just back right back out in reverse (sand, mud.) But in the same bottom, the wing keel will just plow right up on the sand/mud and leave you there. It almost acts like an anchor. With the wing, you have to work yourselff off the bottom by going forward, side to side, what ever you can. Usually you cann't just back off like with the fin. IMHO, in general the wing keel is more difficult than the fin keel. I probably would not feel the same if I sailed in Maine where it's all rock, or in some parts of Florida where it's all shallow. Something to think about.
 
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Eric Swift

All Good Advice

I owned two 83 H34s for a short while, shallow and deep draft and came away much preferring the deep draft, to my surprise. I sail on the Chesapeake and it has made very little difference here in terms of hitting bottom. Also the fin keel tends to cut through the soft bottom if only touching and I have yet to have to be towed off. I would be careful about the length of the rudder, however. The early boats (see archives) had short rudders many of which were retrofit with longer ones but some didn't. My shallow draft was quite tender in moderate winds and rounded up easily when heeling, if I did not reef early. I had thought or adding a lead bulb (see archives) to the shallow draft model but ended up keeping the deep draft model, as mentioned. In the end, it was the boat that was in the best condition with the the best equipment that decided it for me. Good luck.
 
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Alan

2 Keels

I used to own an H34 deep and have sailed on the shoal. There is a definate advantage to the deep keel. It points higher and has a better lift over the shoal which translates into stiffer and faster. However, if 2ft makes the difference between go or nogo there is no option.
 
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Robert Dean

Keel Trade

With all this talk about keels and their relative merits, does anybody have a full keel for a Hunter Legend 35 that they would like to trade for a HL 35 shoal draft wing keel ??? R Dean Pensacola, FL
 
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Alan

Full Keel???

Robert,I don't believe that Hunter made any boats with Full keels. I think you mean Fin Keel?? Anyway, I have a custom Fin keel on my L35.5 that I bought from Mars Metal in Canada. We took off the old wing and upgraded to this. WOW, what a difference!!
 
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Robert Dean

Mars Metal

Alan, I called MM recently and the guy I talked to did not seem to have a clue as to a Hunter keel mod. Do you have an order date, order number or POC that I could call and see if the Hunter custom keel is still available ?? Was your custom keel a mod to the wing keel or a new full (re:fin) keel ?? I love to race my HL35 but the wing keel is just not competetive to the first mark. Appreciate your interest, info and reply. Robert
 
Dec 2, 1999
15,184
Hunter Vision-36 Rio Vista, CA.
They will build it if you have the money.

Robert: If you have the money, Mars Metals can build it. The can design a keel apendage for you based on a profile of your existing keel. They can add on cheeks, a bulb on the bottom or whatever you can think of. They are now mfg the keels for many of the new Hunters. Give them a call and ask them about your design and what characteristics you would like to change. I think you will find that every mod is custom.
 
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Robert Dean

MM Keels

Steve, As indicated in a PP, my latest call to MM was not too encouraging. Hopfully Alan will respond with more info about his "WOW" keel. Appreciate your words of positive logic. My local keel guy sez the best way to upgrade is to swap out a wing keel for a full fin. Thanks again Looking for Alan's reply. Robert
 
Dec 2, 1999
15,184
Hunter Vision-36 Rio Vista, CA.
What do you want to do?

Robert: What do you want to do to the keel? One option would be to add a bulb to the bottom of the existing keel. I think I would talk to someone (marine designer) on what would be the best way to do this.
 
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Robert Dean

The Keel and me

Steve, My HL35 came with the 4ft 6 inch shoal draft wing keel with the Hunter designed bulb. I am of a mind set that the wings on the aft end of bulb are a big cause of underwater drag. If the boat is not in perfect fore and aft trim for the wings then these bulb wings are either pushing water (when bow up) of pulling water (bow down). In both cases this is big time drag. When I spoke to my keel shaper about removing the wings he suggested that it is easier to swap keels. What do I want to do - be competive to the first mark. As to talking to someone about keels - Alan made a change that he describes as a "WOW" performance increase. Looking forward to his info on his custom keel Appreciate your interest. Pointless in Pensacola, Robert
 
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Alan

Upgraded Keel

Robert, If you are a fanatic racer like me, I know exactly where your coming from! I wanted my boat to be VERY competative. In the last 2 or3 years we've been winning everything no matter what the competition. The keel is a part of the formula along with ALL the other upgrades and a very good crew. If you would like I can dig out all the info on my keel mods.
 
Dec 2, 1999
15,184
Hunter Vision-36 Rio Vista, CA.
how about a deep winged keel?

Robert: If you decide to do something like this be sure to document it and take pictures. This would be a great addition to the photo forum. If you have a modified keel and you are racing this boat, aren't they going to give you some type of a penalty? I would think that a winged keel would actually give the boat more lift. It seems to me (and believe me I am NO engineer) that leaving the wing and adding some draught to the keel would be the cats ass!
 
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Alan

Deep Wing??

The "wing" keels that are used on IACC boats have NOTHING in common with the bulb wing keels of production boats like Hunters. Just stand in front of one of your bulb wing keels after haulout and look at the size of the frontal surface area. That's almost all drag. The idea of a keel is to minimize drag and maximize lift with as much righting moment as can be developed. Carrying 5000#'s of lead underwater and creating lift with minimal drag takes some real designing. If you check out the NACA forms and their associated tables you can see the trade off between lift, drag, acceleration and ultimare speed. Thats how I set up my designed keel.
 
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