Sense 50 - No Limber Holes

Ron20324 · Feb 21, 2017

Well, have you seen the same year as yours WITH the limbers? If your dealer or Beneteau says they are supposed to be there, have them fix it right. You HAVE contacted them, haven't you? Maybe it was designed limber-less, and not a "defect".

Your boat would not be the first one with a natural list. Search the forums for other stories on that.

Solstice · Feb 22, 2017

Captain Ag said:
I have a Sense 50 (hull #157) and have discovered the inner hull liner did not have the 50+ limber holes drilled. First indication was the boat listing to starboard (2-5 degrees). Then, we discovered water collecting in the under-floor compartments in the salon. I have discovered several other Sense 50 produced in the similar time period (2014/2015) that are also missing the limber holes.

If there are any other Sense 50 owners in the US or foreign that have determined they have this same defect or need additional information please contact me. Email: austin0884@gmail.com or response within the forum and this post. Thanks.

Just as an FYI, friends of ours have a 14' Sense 43 and have discovered the same thing. They are having issues with mold/mildew and dampness throughout the boat.

IGGALN · Feb 27, 2017

Not surprising. We saw the build quality slip dramatically from our 393 to the OC 45 that we have. They have cut back dramatically in their push to save $$$.

What year is your boat? Are you the original owner?

CloudDiver · Mar 1, 2017

That's a pretty significant goof on a $3/4M yacht... I'm fairly familiar with Beneteau's grid structure architecture and it seems completely possible to drill limber holes at the appropriate intersections but it is more complex than it sounds;
- the simple way to descried it is to drill slightly oversized and epoxy in a short length of G10 tube
- problem 1 as stated above by @Captain Ag is that the hull liner does not always have an access panel at every intersection of the grid structure. To get all of them you'd have to cut access panels and that is not pretty.
- Problem 2, nothing is at a perfect right angle on all dimensions where the limber holes need to go. A long drill bit will not track straight through and parallel to the curved hull at the athwart ships intersections. It will also not track straight because the of the size of the drill chuck and tool body, but I could probably work around this. The very bottom of the tube needs to be flush with hull surface (which slightly curves) so that no residual water is left on the 'upstream' side.
- The best solution I can imagine is attempting to pilot drill each limber hole with a small diameter bit from two sides (which is probably not possible at every place covered by the liner), and then use a carbide burr to enlarge the hole... Its a mean tool that eats through glass like butter but also requires a very good eye and steady hand. If the hole is shaped correctly then a short length of G10 tube can be inserted with thickened epoxy. I'd actually also cut the very bottom of the tube off (longitudinally) to get it flush with the hull.

Anyway, materials cost would be very low, but labor could be very high. If sections of the liner need to be removed to create access, we are talking serious fiberglass and gelcoat repairs as well as replacing the cabin sole wood covering. This isn't a job I would expect an owner to tackle DIY. Major gaff on benny's part.

Ron20324 · Mar 1, 2017

Well, yes and no to Cloud. It would be better to drill what holes you can than to have none at all, if that's your concern. If you put a tube trough the holes you drill, you are denying air ventilation between the pan and hull. Better to leave them open, I'd say, but that may depend on whether there is a low spot where any water can run to and be removed. My 2 cents.

CloudDiver · Mar 1, 2017

Ron20324 said:
Well, yes and no to Cloud. It would be better to drill what holes you can than to have none at all, if that's your concern. If you put a tube trough the holes you drill, you are denying air ventilation between the pan and hull. Better to leave them open, I'd say, but that may depend on whether there is a low spot where any water can run to and be removed. My 2 cents.

Huh? I think we might have had some confusion of terms... In a Benny (may be diff on the larger hulls) the grid structure and hull liner and are one piece that in glued/tabbed into the smooth hull bottom to make a monocoque assembly. Any water that enters from above collects in the pan but needs limber holes to reach the bilge but does not fall below to the inner hull. There is very little space if any under there and essentially forms a water-tight compartment. Now, I'm not certain on the larger hulls, but they may have a true grid (which has precut limber holes) that is not in a pan form that glues down to the smooth hull, then another liner attaches to the top of that and is a more traditional 'floor pan' as it were. In the former, the only water that could get between the hull and grid/liner would have to come from underneath via damage causing a compromised hull. In the latter, any water always ends up touching the hull itself and flowing to the bilge collection point. I can't check video at work, but I can look at Benny's published stuff when I get home and know which one. Either way, when you cut a hole in that glass (does not matter which grid structure formation I mentioned) you'll have exposed core material... they are not solid glass at that size. The G10 tube acts as a liner and somewhat restore structural integrity, not that you are compromising much by drilling a hole.

Alan Gomes · Mar 1, 2017

Personally, I think the real solution is an attorney with a large dorsal fin.

JohnShannon · Mar 1, 2017

I think it is more like a 500k yacht, but even so.

Jackdaw · Mar 2, 2017

Here is the grid and a limber hole on the Beneteau First 36.7. That limber hole is absolutely open to the internals of the grid. Others are connected. The pan is solid glass. It is bonded to the hull in the low/flat areas, and the 'grid' is open space that is sort of interconnected. On the 367 before we race we play a game called drain the grid', where the entire crew stands on the aft starboard side of the cockpit while one person shopvacs out gallons of water from a strategic spot under the nav station.

Kestrel is a 2006, late in the series. Interestingly Beneteau issued an ECO (Engineering Change Order) in 2003 to increase the number of holes to help the water drain better. Seems in the earlier boats you were playing one of these kids games where you drive a marble thru a grid!

The good thing about the 367 is it is more a race boat and this grid is accessible everywhere. On the big Sense I can imagine spot where serious furniture would be in the way.

Philip_Oceanis 361 · Mar 2, 2017

Jackdaw said:
. while one person shopvacs out gallons of water from a strategic spot under the nav station.

.

Now this is interesting! Why there's so much water down there? Sea water or fresh water?

Jackdaw · Mar 2, 2017

Philip_Oceanis 361 said:
Now this is interesting! Why there's so much water down there? Sea water or fresh water?

Fresh. The 367 mast is keel stepped, and after several big rains gallons of water get in via all the holes in the mast and end up in the grid.

Davidasailor26 · Mar 2, 2017

Our 2014 Oceanis 37 looks basically the same as Jackdaw describes as well. As part of winterizing and recommissioning we drain the water heater into the bilge. It takes a few sails and a few iterations of filling the front water tank while the back one is empty before all of the water drains back into the bilge. The first winter we had the boat there was an anchor locker leak that let water under the liner. I figured I'd pour a little antifreeze in to prevent it from freezing. Poured in a gallon and it completely disappeared under the liner, never to be seen again.

Philip_Oceanis 361 · Mar 2, 2017

The Benny 361 has both large and small limber holes and I think it's what Jackdaw mentioned, they are open. However (I hope) whatever goes inside the grid will find its way out of the big holes. I am surprised that the Sense 50 has none.

CloudDiver · Mar 2, 2017

Philip_Oceanis 361 said:
The Benny 361 has both large and small limber holes and I think it's what Jackdaw mentioned, they are open. However (I hope) whatever goes inside the grid will find its way out of the big holes. I am surprised that the Sense 50 has none.

Thanks for posting this picture; this illustrates why I was recommending drilling the limber hole and epoxy in a G10 tube (cutting the tube in half works to double the use of material, but doing it after the boat is compete the holes will be round).

NYSail · Mar 2, 2017

Philip_Oceanis 361 said:
Now this is interesting! Why there's so much water down there? Sea water or fresh water?

I was wonderful by the same thing?? May have another problem

Sense 50 - No Limber Holes

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