Self Tailing Winch

[Stu Jackson]

But if the grooves "do NOTHING," as Stu says, what are they for and why did he use this product successfully? And what did he do with the sheets, if he didn't cleat them or tie them off on anything?

And what do "RTFM" and "IIRC" mean? Pardon my ignorance

Read the Funny Manual
If I Recall Correctly

Sheets? I wrapped the sheet around the winch twice for rough sheeting, one or two more times for fine sheeting and loading up the drum and then just left them there, no cleats on my coamings. All I can say is they worked for me for a long time.

The grooves are there because the way they are made: that area is simply exactly where they slip over the top "ring" of the winch.
Why they chose to make it look like something to tuck the sheet into I don't know.

And I respect Joe and his input on this forum.

Like everything else in boats (except safety stuff), there are compromises. These Winchers are nowhere near as good as self tailing winches, but used properly they perform essentially, not ALL, of the same service for the budget minded. Joe & I simply agree to disagree on it, and remain friends.

Earendil, I suggest you do a Google search on Winchers, and read away, because this subject has been discussed in great detail many, many times before. There is no right answer.

Your boat, your choice.

 

[David in Sandusky]

We have jam cleats at the right angle behind our sheet winches mounted on the side of our cockpit. We have sailed Lake Erie (plus St. Clair and Huron) for 16 summers going 500 or more miles per summer.

We have never had a problem with our jam cleats. One hand once around secures the sheet. I can't figure out a better solution.

 

[Jackdaw]

Like everything else in boats (except safety stuff), there are compromises. These Winchers are nowhere near as good as self tailing winches, but used properly they perform essentially, not ALL, of the same service for the budget minded. Joe & I simply agree to disagree on it, and remain friends.

My experience with boats I've been on with Winchers: As a self-tailers, they were totally inadequate. They simply don't do that. The line does not stay in. You need to tail. Now as a way to cleat off a sheet, in leu of a camcleat, they are just OK. It normally grabs OK, but it takes longer and sometimes it slips out with bad results. Load up a camcleat and it holds.

My advice, if you want the capabilies of self tailers, buy them.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Well, just remember the OP asked a fairly inane question of how to keep the sheet from unwinding w/o using the cleat put on the boat for that purpose and (by intimation) w/o retaining a hold on it. Certain kinds of questions get certain kinds of answers. The Wincher will hold the sheet tight on the winch drum for a short amount of time at least w/o having to [or trying to] set the sheet in the groove at the top when finished trimming. And I believe you can trim w/o tailing with your other hand but when done trimming I usually cleated. It's been more than 12 yr but I'm certain I could do that on my P-30, which was so equipped. However, mine is not a strong endorsement of the device so there is no need for incredulity!! People single handing extensively should install self-tailing winches, at least on large boats, IMHO.

 

[mmhamer]

It sounds like i need to use my Jam cleats as they were intended. i'll try that this coming season. The Wincher sounds like a interesting 2nd option and would likely work for what I need,
Thank you for all the input. It is much appreciated.

 

[Apex]

look up a clam cleat. My favorite, when mounted at the correct angle leaving the winch.

 

[Stu Jackson]

clam cleat

Ah, my least favorite since the jam cleat. Who woulda known...

 

[Joe]

the ribs underneath the donut are what grips the line. Theoretically, the spiral motion of the wrapped line is supposed to push the top wrap off as the winch is turned.....but.. uh... it doesn't... I wished real hard that it would... but... well .. you know the story. These pics are from the Barton Marine site.

Cleating...
To cleat, lock sheet into ribbed groove.

Self-Tailing
For self-tailing, the entire winch must be stacked with line.

 

[Kings Gambit]

the ribs underneath the donut are what grips the line. Theoretically, the spiral motion of the wrapped line is supposed to push the top wrap off as the winch is turned.....but.. uh... it doesn't... I wished real hard that it would... but... well .. you know the story. These pics are from the Barton Marine site.

Cleating...
To cleat, lock sheet into ribbed groove.

Self-Tailing
For self-tailing, the entire winch must be stacked with line.

Maybe this variance in reporting has something to do with the diameter/circumference of the sheet. I can see where a small diameter sheet might not "pop off" at the top as it's supposed to. Mine did; I believe they were 5/16" - 3/8" (can't remember or sure). Quarter inch or less might not do the job. Look at the (relative) size of the sheet depicted. Also, the winch in the diagram is clearly beveled.

In any event, see below the picture (YouTube) worth a thousand posts.

 

[kito]

Here's a poor quality video that the Wincher people put on Youtube. But gives you an idea on how it works.

Hey KG, you beat me to it!!!

 

[Kings Gambit]

Here's a poor quality video that the Wincher people put on Youtube. But gives you an idea on how it works.

Hey KG, you beat me to it!!!

It must mean "Great Minds Think Alike."

 

[RussC]

"there's our dinghy"

 

[Apex]

Ah, my least favorite since the jam cleat. Who woulda known...

 

[Kings Gambit]

Ah, my least favorite since the jam cleat. Who woulda known...

I'm not a fan of jam cleats, clam cleats, or cam cleats for routine work on big boats. I think these must have been invented for racing dinghies and other small boats where one is typically using both hands to control the boat and where one needs a quick (one-handed) way to stop off a line between tacks, gybes, spinnaker sets, and etc., with loads not that high. I typically want a horn cleat (with good clearance underneath) within easy reach of which ever line needs to be secured. However, self-tailing winches are great for large boats for stopping off the sheets. Rope clutches are great for the halyards. Equipped with those items, the Bavaria has only the six deck cleats (fwd, mid, and aft--each side) which are very substantial, plus a couple on the mast. I doubt I'd ever go back!

 

[Rick D]

I used them for about ten years on a 26 and 27 boat. I found the most useful feature was the circular cleat on top. It was simply more handy than a horn cleat. Most of the operation was still two-handed as it continues to be on my self-tailers until the sheet loads. My recollection was that I didn't use the ribbed under surface to help tail unless the winch was pretty well loaded which didn't occur that much in the predominantly light air conditions I sailed in. When it did load up though, I thought it was helpful. All in all, they were, in my opinion, a useful feature and agree with Stu who probably had more opportunity to load the sheets than I.

 

[Johann]

I did realize what the "jam" in jam-cleat was used for. I'll try that this season.
My thought was to add a Cam-cleat (Harken 150) somewhere near the winch. I'm from small boat racing and we would either hold it or cleat it in a Cam Cleat. Just trying to figure out what's best on the new "big" boat.
If anyone has mounting a Cam Cleat, where and how would be appreciated.
Thx

I replaced the jam cleat with a spinlock px cleat and never worried about the winch. The loads on the sheet just aren't that high. Easy to set and release... There is a write up in the boat info section by Rick Webb. He used risers, I've also seen angled risers to make the release even easier.

 

[cb32863]

I'm interested in this conversation about "Winchers." I have an O'Day 23, and do a lot of single-handed sailing (season three coming up). I sort of got laughed out of another forum when I asked about self-tailing winches -- folks seemed to feel a boat that small didn't need self-tailing winches, but when you are out alone there are lots of things that can help.

My First 235 came with self tailer's. They are great to have. Anyone who says your 23 foot boat is too small for them is narrow minded and well, stupid.

 

[isaksp00]

RTFM - Read The "Funny" Manual, from what I have seen.
IIRC - could be If I Read Correctly or If I Recall Correctly.

 

[woodster]

I personally think there should self tailing winches on everything even in the pickup truck

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

As a dealer and one involved with this boat from the beginning, here is what I experienced.
First we are dealing with a B & R mast/rig which the jib is smaller as the mainsail is larger. Hunter wanted the power in the mainsail. The first few boats came only with a traditional cleat and to be quite frank, they were cumbersome as I wanted some way to release them quickly. The fixed cam cleats were ok but the angle which to release was not good; thus, riser style spacers were made for me angling the fixed cam cleat upward which solved the problem. I found that it would benefit if the cam cleats could swivel so anyone can release or pull in the jib sheets from anywhere in the cockpit. It worked. I took off any winches and those cleats and never looked back. Securing is not an issue as there is an aluminum plate encapsuled in the fiberglass coach housing or deck as some would say. This was not a concern as to attachment as we are not dealing with a large sail on a trailerable sailboat nor really trying to pull it upward out or from the deck. .

Now the question for removing the winch. They are not a self tailor nor did I find the attachments to really work. Remember what I said. The jib is not a traditional sized jib as the main was built larger due to the belief by Hunter that should be the way. I concur. We are dealing with a 110 jib and by the way, anything larger will not really work due to the swept back spreaders and the life lines. Thus in light air I suggest an A symmetrical spinnaker. Now the question were winches necessary for the jib. NO. Never. As part of the sale, everyone was taught how to trailer, tie down , sail, systems, etc which was more extensive than other dealers. I taught as you started the turn to release the jib sheet and pull in on the other side. If too much you could always let it out plus if you wanted to pull it in, turn into the wind a little. Now the sooth sayers would say, what about racing. Most people who purchased these boats did some racing but this style boat was built mostly for pleasure sailing/cruising. By the way, I was taught by Mavilio who used to race in the Mediterrainian and the Hunter water ballast did very well in racing even out of the box.

Rick Webb has information on this and suggest like another to see his post for more in depth.