Sailing Trends: Your Perception?

jssailem · Nov 18, 2017

Rick. I think you have summarized my observations of the young adults termed:
Millennials

a person reaching young adulthood in the early 21st century.

"the industry brims with theories on what makes millennials tick"

What “yachting association “ and what are you trying to accomplish with your “programs”?

Thought comes to me that you are looking for a magic key into there pockets to fit boating stuff. In my 40 years of marketing I’ve learned magic keys may work once but not for long. Are sometimes very expensive to find. And can yield long term dissatisfaction.

But that’s just me. On the other hand I believe there are ideas that might open paths to engage young adults.

dlochner · Nov 18, 2017

Regardless of age, the social aspects of sailing, cruising, racing, and club membership can not be overlooked. These kids grew up in schools where working together was taught and practiced. They bring that experience and learning to everything they do, just as we older folks were taught compliance and obedience and tend to bring that experience to everything we do.

Those of us committed to sailing need to be careful of the "echo chamber" effect that adversely affects our national political scene. Sailing is a diverse sport, from casual sailing on an old boat of uncertain provenance to high level competitive sailing on state of the art boats, like the VOR 65.

Real estate developers and the moneyed class are closing the door on opportunities for younger adults to enter the sport. Million dollar waterfront condos and expensive marinas exclude those at the beginning of their careers and for most of the rest of us.

Where is there hope for the sport? In rural America, in the small towns on lakes and the coasts. Places were sailing remains affordable and accessible. I keep my boat in one of the nicest marinas on Lake Ontario on a small bay, 45 miles from the nearest city (Syracuse). Dockage is about half the cost of marinas in Buffalo in what are highly industrialized settings. Simply put, sailing out of Little Sodus Bay is affordable and attractive, sailing out of Buffalo less so.

Creating accessible, affordable access to sailing is essential to draw younger folks into sailing. Tending to their social needs will keep them in the game.

Crazy Dave Condon · Nov 18, 2017

Eliminate video style games. So many are not enjoying the outdoors or other interesting fields like model railroading and so forth anymore either.

TomY · Nov 18, 2017

"I thought this might be interesting but I also concede I am not so wired into that demographic."

This is an interesting topic, Rick. I feel a little more connected (wirelessly), into the millennials having fathered a couple thereby involved in many of their friends lives(peers), that grew up around them.

I think you have the trends right in your statements #1 and #2, but I'd stay away from statements like #3:
"Third, they have no or limited mechanical skills never having the background or patience to learn them."

That just comes off as generation bashing which is older than baseball.

Millennials I know have varying levels of mechanical skills. They do have different skills than the baby boomers, that raised them.

Off hand, I would first ask, what are millennials about?

One trait many of them share is the environment. As a rule, this generation is trending toward energy efficiency. Sailing has always dovetailed into that.

There is a start. But I echo what DL says above: Public access to the water is the most important ingredient for the health of sailing.

Rick D said:
This might be better said as "Boating Trends". So, I'm thinking that there is something going on in terms of traditional ownership. What I am seeing is younger adults opting out of boat ownership and into boat-sharing collectives, in some ways like an Uber model. I think this is largely an urban-metropolitan trend. First, they are already less committed to ownership. For example, they rent their apartment or condo rather than own it. Second, they may not own a vehicle, using ride-sharing services and public transport. Third, they have no or limited mechanical skills never having the background or patience to learn them. Finally, they have fractionalized interests with many competing for their time.
So, I see a trend with a managed fractional ownership (AKA SailTime), fleet-owned organizations, charter programs and others more suited to this model. Right now, I see it more in sailing than motor yachting. What do you think? I appreciate that they are not an audience that hangs out on this board, but maybe you know some of the people I am talking about and have an opinion. BTW, the reason I ask is that I belong to a yachting association and am trying to figure out what kinds of programs to put together for yacht and boating organizations. I thought this might be interesting but I also concede I am not so wired into that demographic.
Besides, most of you folks on the right coast have hauled out and are rich for discussion ;-)

capta · Nov 18, 2017

We have noticed a few things down here of late. Less and less capable operators of bigger and bigger bareboats, mostly cats. On a good sailing day, trades blowing 15 to 18 knots (with the wind on the beam or only slightly forward of that and seas running 4 to 5 feet for the most part) we see a goodly number of bareboats (cats and mono's) powering from anchorage to anchorage, some not even bothering to raise a sail and therefore having a miserable and very slow trip.
We see very few folks under 40 cruising. Especially with kids, and the vast majority of those are Europeans. Of those some seem well financed and some don't, but they all seem like happy families. Most of these are on a specific voyage; a year or two then back to whatever life they came from.
Oddly, it seems the majority of the Americans we encounter down here, cruising on a big budget or small, are Trump supporters.

dlochner · Nov 18, 2017

Rick D said:
To clarify, I am V/C of a yachting organization representing about 90 yachting and boating clubs in SoCal, AZ & NV. We have Chairs who gather information from clubs, organizations, and harbor associations and report regularly to benefit the members. Examples are regattas, fishing, governmental and regulatory, disabled sailing, women's boating, youth sailing, etc. I was considering one for a shared boating element. That may be disruptive, but it has been my belief it is better to know trends than be surprised by them. I am expecting some resistance, thus I'm poking you for your thoughts.

I"m not sure how it would be disruptive to form an exploratory group to see what interest in shared boating exists. If there are no shared boating groups, then there aren't any.

If on the other hand your organization is wondering whether it should create a shared boating organization that does more than collect and disseminate information, that would be another story. Initially will you be assessing what exists? Or promoting the creation of shared boating opportunities.

This is a chicken and egg kind of situation. Do you want to help an egg hatch? Or do you want to be the chicken laying the egg?

jssailem · Nov 18, 2017

dlochner said:
Or do you want to be the chicken laying the egg?

Too funny Dave.

Rick it is so easy to take off in a direction only to learn it is a bad path.

I like the start being an identification of what you are doing now. How does it appeal or not appeal to the group you want to reach? What changes may be made to make it more desirable? Can you or do you want to make these changes?

You are going to need to connect with some in the group you want to approach to get their input.

I read Capta's comment. At the end he slips an idea in that may be a window. After I wrote my original message I thought about how to identify groups in the target Millennial age that might find what you are offering attractive. Using the "political" groupings based on the presidential candidates produced three general groups that you can examine for interests that align with the offerings you provide. Certainly the Trump group has the interest in financial means to afford traditional boating as an interest. While the Bernie Sanders group could be labeled as more focused on being given free resources (ie college tuition) and may find the shared "just use it" third party funded structure of a boating club appealing.

What ever you do you need to use communication systems that are the norm for the group. magazines and print are not the method. Putting print type ads on social media does not get it. You need to design a strategy of social media that is engaging and challenges the individual. It also needs to be flexible to change channel and message to the changing interests of the market. This is not easy and not compatible with "old style" market thinking of "invest big in idea then let it pay back over years". In today's world you have to invest and keep investing to get the idea to "go viral". Some of this is small scale function. As the phrase coined several years ago... "Gorilla Marketing".

A beginning...

Head Sail · Nov 18, 2017

Let's face it yachting is for the well off and always has been except for a time in the 60's and 70's when the price of oil was at times under $3/bbl. A middle class family could afford the upfront price of a boat. Oil prices eventually rose to over $96 putting new boat ownership out of reach for most and out of the question for young adults. They took up other new and "cool" sports like rock climbing, adventure rafting, and wind surfing.
Young people for the most part are not interested in cruising. Plodding along a 6 or 7knts is not their idea of excitement. Parents that drag their kids along are doing the sport a disservice when they tell their friends how boring it was with nothing to do. You have to make it fun, fast and gets the adrenaline going. Think small, fast, and maneuverable like a windsurfer, cat, or sunfish.

Kings Gambit · Nov 18, 2017

An observation. Last summer when the Admirable and I were out at the island (Santa Cruz) I noticed one of the sailing clubs arriving in good numbers out from Channel Islands Harbor. I believe this was the Fairwind Yacht Club as they call themselves, to wit--"Fairwind Yacht Club, an all volunteer sailing cooperative in Marina del Rey and Channel Islands Harbor, is the ideal way for boating enthusiasts to have year-round access to sailboats without the high costs of ownership."

What impressed me was the number and sizes of the boats in the fleet for this sail-out of theirs. The cruise leader was in a Catalina 400 plus they had a few other boats of decent size including Catalina 30's and 27's. I chatted with a couple of the skippers anchored at Little Scorpion. Those skippers were probably in their late 30's to mid-40's. They saw the shared use idea as exactly what they wanted and praised it. No one said; "I can't wait to get my own boat."

I don't go along with the oil price argument. Interest rates have been at historic lows for nigh on 20 yr, at least. The savings on home ownership potential have been immense--more than enough to compensate for oil-price variances. And, to a degree, this translates to financing on boats, especially if you could roll the boat into a house refinance at a new, lower interest rate. Slips have been available. No--that's not it.

The demographic has changed--I think to due (new) immigration--and not just from one or another ethnic or national-origin group--but across the board. It seems to me that maybe a quarter of the folks I talk to everyday (here in an immense metropolitan area of CA) have accents suggesting non-US born citizens, or are bi-lingual citizens from a multiplicity of language backgrounds. The overall "boating club" surviving from the boomers is disappearing and is not being replaced "with like." Many different kinds of clubs report this same trend. It's not about boating per se. So, I'd say throw away the "too expensive" or "prohibitively expensive" arguments. Youngish people now just do not seem to embrace the outdoor world as we did. As Capta said, the folks can afford to rent the Caribbean bare-boat charters; they just did not know how to sail 'em. As far as Fairwind YC--people will pay less for what they wish to do if given the opportunity--it may have little to do w/ "affordability."

Jackdaw · Nov 18, 2017

Expensive powerboats sell well in the USA.
Expensive sailboats sell well in Europe and the ROW.
People everywhere make time to do things they love to do. Always have, always will.

People is the USA just don't like to sail anymore, down 90% from they way they did. Can this be turned around? Maybe around the edges, small victories. But I don't see a 'big win' to make it all better. Demographics are against us now.

jssailem · Nov 18, 2017

I think this change in demographics, “How I choose to spend my money” supports the premise Jackdaw gave us on the “French Cruising Boat Design for speed”.

The cruising is a journey has changed to “it’s the destination”. Thinking. Look at golf. Membership in clubs that offer 18 Championship holes and 4-6 hours of play have changed to:
The Bar/Food/lounge chairs and a Driving range. A place to spend a couple of hours with friends wacking a ball and socializing. Look at the work place changes. Google, Apple & Nike are just three sites that have expansive recreational work spaces and hordes Millennials being social and creative. Why do I need to go sailing when I can do all of the recreation at work and get paid.

Jackdaw · Nov 18, 2017

capta said:
Oddly, it seems the majority of the Americans we encounter down here, cruising on a big budget or small, are Trump supporters.

Pink Floyd said it best in MONEY...

Money, get back.
I'm all right Jack keep your hands off of my stack.

Kings Gambit · Nov 18, 2017

From a recent MarketWatch:
On the one-year anniversary of Donald Trump’s win in the U.S. presidential race, the Dow Jones Industrial Average is showing its biggest post-Election Day gain in more than 70 years. Is anyone really going to say--hey, I'm firmly against this--and mean it?

dlochner · Nov 18, 2017

Kings Gambit said:
From a recent Market Watch:
On the one-year anniversary of Donald Trump’s win in the U.S. presidential race, the Dow Jones Industrial Average is showing its biggest post-Election Day gain in more than 70 years. Is anyone going to say--hey, I'm firmly against this?

Two quick comments. The above statement is simply a statement of 2 facts, the market is up, Trump was elected a year ago. Believing that one caused the other is a classic example of confusing causation with correlation. The market has also gone up since the Harvey Weinstein mess has hit the fan. The market also more than doubled during the previous WH administration. The market has also gone up after 9 years of a mostly stalled and ineffective congress. The market has also gone up as profits rose. One of those reasons makes sense, but they are all correlational statements, not causation statements.

As for the Trump supporters out cruising, I would suspect that it has more to do with the kind of free spirited, libertarian, ideals that are common among cruisers.

Let's try to avoid drifting into politics.

TomY · Nov 18, 2017

Jackdaw said:
People is the USA just don't like to sail anymore, down 90% from they way they did. Can this be turned around? Maybe around the edges, small victories. But I don't see a 'big win' to make it all better. Demographics are against us now.

There must be a surplus of moorings, docks and boat storage then in the places that sailing is 10% of what it 'was'? Maybe you are talking about inland lakes, Jack?

Certainly not the case in New England. In my Penobscot Bay, mooring fields are continually growing. Waiting lists are common and I haven't seen the lists - at least in my local waters - go down.

New sailboat sales are down but that hasn't seemed to affect sailing. Sailing around here is largely in used boats, and always has been. Motorboats have always been popular but I don't see that segment of boating growing over sailing, locally.

The sailing trend around here - as far as I can see - is, the more things change,...

Jackdaw · Nov 18, 2017

TomY said:
There must be a surplus of moorings, docks and boat storage then in the places that sailing is 10% of what it 'was'? Maybe you are talking about inland lakes, Jack?

Certainly not the case in New England. In my Penobscot Bay, mooring fields are continually growing. Waiting lists are common and I haven't seen the lists - at least in my local waters - go down.

New sailboat sales are down but that hasn't seemed to affect sailing. Sailing around here is largely in used boats, and always has been. Motorboats have always been popular but I don't see that segment of boating growing over sailing, locally.

The sailing trend around here - as far as I can see - is, the more things change,...

Its well known that the number of recreational sailors in the USA have fallen drastically since the 1980s, from over 12 million to under 2M. Maybe your region is fairing a bit better than average but its have to conceive how it would have avoided it. Its a macro trend, and has been for years.

From 'Saving Sailing'.

TomY · Nov 18, 2017

Jackdaw said:
Its well known that the number of recreational sailors in the USA have fallen drastically since the 1980s, from over 12 million to under 2M. Maybe your region is fairing a bit better than average but its have to conceive how it would have avoided it. Its a macro trend, and has been for years.

From 'Saving Sailing'.
View attachment 143793

Must be I am. I've been sailing since before the 80's and I haven't seen that drastic 90% drop in sailing, anywhere on the coast(or on Lake Champlain where we sailed for over a decade).

Has anyone else been sailing since the 80's and seen a 90% drop in sailing in their area? I'm curious. I believe the data.

dlochner · Nov 18, 2017

Jackdaw said:
Its well known that the number of recreational sailors in the USA have fallen drastically since the 1980s, from over 12 million to under 2M. Maybe your region is fairing a bit better than average but its have to conceive how it would have avoided it. Its a macro trend, and has been for years.

From 'Saving Sailing'.
View attachment 143793

Interesting graph and not a surprising trend. The lag in Olympic medals relative to the popularity of sailing is understandable. It takes a generation to produce Olympic caliber sailors. All those kids who sailed Optis in the 70s in the 80s provided the environment for top athletes to develop. Once popularity starts to decline, the medals start to decline a generation later, fewer kids in Optis.

A couple of quick observations.

There is a Learn to Sail program near me. It has been at times very popular and they did a good job. What they didn't do is help their students gain entry to the sport beyond learning the basics. There was no introduction to clubs and organizations that would facilitate the students getting more experience and connections to the sailing world. This is a huge mistake. Learning the basics of sailing is not the barrier to entering the sport, it is all the other aspects and the social aspects that are the barriers.

The financial barriers are location based. In areas like Upstate NY, you can find expensive full service marinas that are quite costly and smaller marinas that are quite affordable for a middle class family. In my marina, you can dock and winter store a 30' sailboat for well under $3K a year. And that is a slip with power and water, a few hundred less without power and water. Buy a good 30' sailboat for under $20K and about $200 a month for a slip and winter storage and your in business. A cost that is comparable to having a camp on a lake or an RV.