Sail care and handling for trailerables

Mar 20, 2015
3,094
C&C 30 Mk1 Winnipeg
I've been thinking about building an ice boat for it.
+1

@DrJudyB I've always coveted the Farrier Trimarans.
Performance tris work especially well on the lake I'm on, due to that increased daily range. A good buddy of mine used to build wood ones for this lake when he was young and always dreams about buying a Farrier.
 
Dec 5, 2011
550
Catalina Catalina 22 13632 Phenix City
Trailer sailing, hank on devotee here. I'm still using the original jib that came with my '86 and I flake and roll her up every time and store the sails, pop top cover, outboard and some of the cushions off the boat in a building. Yeah, it makes going sailing kind of a p.i.t.a but it does make cleaning out he interior much easier, especially when your friends dog christens the cabin floor on an extreme heel.
 
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Apr 16, 2017
841
Federation NCC-1701 Riverside
The hunter 170 has a jib with an integrated forestay for furling. There is a uv strip to protect the sail. This boat is trailer sailed.

Ive noticed that the bottom next to the drum rotates about 5 times before the rest of the sail starts catching up. This ends up making the tack looking like a crumpled ball of aluminum foil when unfurled. In addition the sail and stay begins to have a memory of being twisted. If one leaves the jib furled the tack will roll up like christmas paper off the roll if laid flat on the ground.

Ive seen many trailer sailers leave the jib connected to the mast, then drive home with the twisted crumpled noodle tossed and folded on the floor. I did this for a while. On day while paying the entrance fee for the park, the officer looks back and tells me something is dragging. The jib is hanging off the open transom, attached to the mast, still furled, dangling straight out.

The clew is chewed up with road rash but the luggage knot is wasted. The only other road rash is on the uv protecter.

The sail looks scary like moths puked asphalt on the uv shield, but i simply cut out the luggage knot and replaced it with a double bunt. Been sailing ever since.

Now i remove the jib completly and while still furled shove it in the sail bag with the main. When i get home i unpack both sails so i can fold them properly. The main is folded in half then rolled along the leach so that i can fold at the battens. Sometimes flaked along the leech.

The jib has an integrated wire stay. Wire should be coiled correctly on a proper sized drum. I unroll the jib then starting at the head roll along the luff at an 8-12 inch drum size. I then fold it gently into thirds and slide it in the bag with the main and cuddy cover.

The next time i go out i attach the jib head to the mast hold the tack, then walk backwards. The jib unrolls instantly and with a couple twists, have it ready for pinning.
 
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RussC

.
Sep 11, 2015
1,578
Merit 22- Oregon lakes
I'm visualizing a bag with a gap/slot along the bottom for much of it's length, which seems like water would drive it's way in on the highway in the rain. Moreso when it's sitting in a curved pipe. ?

or are you saying it does get wet sometimes anyhow, and you just deal with it when it happens, but most of the time is does not ?
Pretty close, but the closed end is forward, so no water (rain?) gets "driven in" wile trailering. I've never had the sail get wet using this setup. trailering or stored. I'll see if I can get a pic of it later today. it ain't fancy, but it does work ;)
 
Jun 25, 2004
1,108
Corsair F24 Mk1 003 San Francisco Bay, CA
Ive noticed that the bottom next to the drum rotates about 5 times before the rest of the sail starts catching up. This ends up making the clew looking like a crumpled ball of aluminum foil when unfurled. In addition the sail and stay begins to have a memory of being twisted. If one leaves the jib furled the clew will roll up like christmas paper off the roll if laid flat on the ground
@BobbyFunn :
I can't visualize this. Do you mean "tack" instead of "clew"?
 
Aug 22, 2017
1,609
Hunter 26.5 West Palm Beach
My 170 has the same roller set up that Bobby has. My 212 has a hank on. The roller system on the 170 makes it a bit of a p.i.t.a. to attach the head stay when stepping the mast. I don't like the hank on that my 212 has when I am single handing. Both systems are dogs, they just have different fleas.

I am currently considering a new jib for my 212 that will roller furl, but still let me use the existing head stay with the buckle at the bottom that makes it easy to attach the head stay when stepping the mast. I am looking for a furler that will let me still hoist the jib off of the halyard & not have the head stay permanently inside the jib. More info on that can be found here - https://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/furling-jib-for-a-h-212.190585/
 
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Aug 16, 2016
38
Pacific Dolphin 24 Phoenix, Arizona
RussC.....Forget the sail cover...I want your boat awning! Did you make it yourself or purchase a kit?
 

RussC

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Sep 11, 2015
1,578
Merit 22- Oregon lakes
RussC.....Forget the sail cover...I want your boat awning! Did you make it yourself or purchase a kit?
A couple of energetic folks from south of the border come to your house with a trailer load of parts and assemble it on your prepared patch of ground. I have 5 "std carports", in varying sizes ;) the basic model, which I get, are between $900 and 1200 (depending on exact size/height) all in. Pretty hard to beat for the money!
https://www.californiaallsteel.com
 
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Apr 16, 2017
841
Federation NCC-1701 Riverside
The roller system on the 170 makes it a bit of a p.i.t.a. to attach the head stay when stepping the mast.
Having lever adjusters for the upper shrouds will change your life.

Also, use no stretch control line for the furler. Harken is pretty specific with the millimeter size line to use. Previous owner used a thicker cheap line and on windy days there wasnt enough line to furl the jib. The correct size line can jump off the drum though and wrap around the furler shaft while unfurling, effectively locking the jib partially unfurled.
 
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Jun 25, 2004
1,108
Corsair F24 Mk1 003 San Francisco Bay, CA
Bobby,

I've never personally seen a problem with a sail like the problem in the picture you posted. But I've sold quite a few headsails sails with wire luffs and a few small boat furlers. (as well as personally owned two different boats with wire luff jibs) and in general, they work as advertised. No problems of the type illustrated by your picture

Honestly, I don't know what caused the problem with the sail in the picture but there's definitely a problem. That's not what a furling sail with a wire luff looks like normally.

Some background:
The wire is supposed to be 1 x 19 "counterlaid" wire cable, which is normally very resistant to becoming untwisted. Counterlaid cable has two layers; there's an inside layer of wire twisted one direction, surrounded by an outer layer twisted in the opposite direction. The outside layer on 1 x 19 wire has a right hand spiral (looks like RH threads on a machine screw). The inner layer forms a LH spiral. When twisted in one direct or the other, the two layers opposed each other. When you twist the cable so one layer gets looser, the other layer gets tighter. The cable tends to return to the original amount of twist unless it's subject to overwhelming torque. .

The picture suggests to me that the wire rope in the luff has "untwisted" near the tack for whatever reason. at some time in the past I rather doubt that the roll in the sail cloth at the tack what is keeping the sail in that shape. The sail cloth should be lashed or "seized" to the thimbles. I suspect that the sailcloth is twisting because the wire is making it twist.

I'd recommend you take a look at the wire yourself or take it to an experienced sailmaker. If the wire strands have become untwisted (aka unlaid) replace the wire. Then look for an explanation why it got damaged in the first place.

I would guess that some mishap befell your sail in the past, a mishap that caused the wire to distort from its originally tightly twisted pattern. Perhaps the top end of the wire was stuck while somebody pulled on furling line, unwrapping the lay of the wire near the bottom. Perhaps the wire got damaged when it was dragging behind the trailer, on the asphalt. Perhaps the angle of the furling line puts a massive load on the leech of the sail, so the head of the sail can't turn. Without seeing the furler in action, and inspecting the wire and the construction of the sail, I wouldn't want to do more than guess at the underlying cause of the problem.

I hope this helps you figure out what the problem is. Without seeing it up close myself, I can't offer much more help.

Judy
 
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Apr 16, 2017
841
Federation NCC-1701 Riverside
@BobbyFunn ,

I've never personally seen a problem with a sail like the problem in the picture you posted. But I've sold quite a few headsails sails with wire luffs and a few small boat furlers. (as well as personally owned two different boats with wire luff jibs) and in general, they all worked as advertised. Nobody had any problems of the type illustrated by your picture

I'm not at all sure what caused the problem with the sail in the picture but there's definitely a problem.

The wire is supposed to be 1 x 19 "counterlaid" wire cable, which is normally very resistant to becoming untwisted. Counterlaid cable has two layers; there's an inside layer of wire twisted one direction, surrounded by an outer layer twisted in the opposite direction. The outside layer on 1 x 19 wire forms a right hand spiral (looks like RH threads on a machine screw). The inner layer forms a LH spiral, When you twist the cable so one layer gets looser, the other layer gets tighter. The cable usually returns to the original amount of twist.

The picture suggests to me that the wire rope in the luff has "untwisted" near the tack. I rather doubt that the roll in the sail cloth at the tack what is keeping the sail in that shape. I suspect that the sailcloth is twisting because the wire is making it twist. The sail cloth is always lashed or "seized" to the thimbles at the head and at the tack. If the wire is twisted weirdly, the sail cloth will be twisted weirdly too.

I'd recommend you take a careful look at the wire yourself or take it to an experienced sailmaker. If the wire strands have become untwisted (aka unlaid) replace the wire. Then look for an explanation why it got damaged in the first place.

I would guess that some mishap befell your sail in the past, a mishap that caused the wire to distort from its originally tightly twisted pattern. Perhaps the top end of the wire was stuck while somebody pulled on furling line, unwrapping the lay of the wire near the bottom. Perhaps the angle of the furling line puts a massive load on the leech of the sail, so the head of the sail can't turn. Perhaps it got damaged when it was dragging on the road behind your boat( you mentioned that the "luggage tag" (aka seizing) between the tack of the sail and the tack thimble was destroyed).

Without seeing the furler in action, and inspecting the wire and the construction of the sail, I wouldn't want to do more than guess at the underlying cause of the problem.
Thanks for checking that out.

The North Sails shop in st Pete replaced the wire a couple years ago and fixed up some stiching. Its on its last two years.

There is a shackle at the bottom there that connects the grommet to the wire eye. Sometimes the eye gets pushed around and the eye twist as the shackle flips, adding more twist. Its definitely the wire. I think the eyes are not parallel.

Once attached to the swival and furler it works fine with the shackle orientated correctly. I dont like the extreme creases, but the the sails are like 13 years old.
 
Aug 22, 2017
1,609
Hunter 26.5 West Palm Beach
The wire is supposed to be 1 x 19 "counterlaid" wire cable, which is normally very resistant to becoming untwisted. Counterlaid cable has two layers; there's an inside layer of wire twisted one direction, surrounded by an outer layer twisted in the opposite direction. The outside layer on 1 x 19 wire forms a right hand spiral (looks like RH threads on a machine screw). The inner layer forms a LH spiral, When you twist the cable so one layer gets looser, the other layer gets tighter. The cable usually returns to the original amount of twist.
That is great information. I was previously unaware of that.

This leaves me with a silly question though. After the cable has been installed, is there any way that I can identify the cable as being the correct type? Is there something to look for in this type of cable that is visibly different compared to others? I don't have access to the end of the cable because it is inside a crimp sleeve, so in this case, I can't look at the cable from the very end.
 
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Apr 16, 2017
841
Federation NCC-1701 Riverside
That is great information. I was previously unaware of that.

This leaves me with a silly question though. After the cable has been installed, is there any way that I can identify the cable as being the correct type? Is there something to look for in this type of cable that is visibly different compared to others? I don't have access to the end of the cable because it is inside a crimp sleeve, so in this case, I can't look at the cable from the very end.
Thats a good question. I highy doubt the smaller boats are using that. The documentation from manufactures has end users welding the ends after cuts to bind the two layers together.

For small budget boats simple "regular lay" , off "the reel in the corner over there" we got from west marine while it was on sale is probably what we have. This rotation resistant stuff looks highly specialized.
 
Jun 25, 2004
1,108
Corsair F24 Mk1 003 San Francisco Bay, CA
U
For small budget boats simple "regular lay" , off "the reel in the corner over there" we got from west marine while it was on sale is probably what we have. This rotation resistant stuff looks highly specialized.
1 x 19 is a very common wire rope . It is usually made of with 316 alloy (but not always). Because of the way the wires are twisted together, it is more resistant to torque than the other commonly used wire rope, which is called 7 x 19. You can buy it "off the reel" from West Marine. It is the most commonly used cable for standing rigging on sailboats.

The other common cable is 7 x 19 wire, which is much more flexible and is usually made of 302 or 304 alloy, which is less corrosion resistant. It's typically used for wire halyards, lifelines, lifting slings, etc. You can get 7 x 19 off the reel at West Marine too.
 
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Jun 25, 2004
1,108
Corsair F24 Mk1 003 San Francisco Bay, CA
This leaves me with a silly question though. After the cable has been installed, is there any way that I can identify the cable as being the correct type? Is there something to look for in this type of cable that is visibly different compared to others? I don't have access to the end of the cable because it is inside a crimp sleeve, so in this case, I can't look at the cable from the very end.
@JimInPB :

You can tell just by looking at the wire that's on the thimble. The two wires look quite different on the outside and on the cut ends.

Below:
Here's 1 x 19 wire. It has a total of 19 wires twisted into one bundle consisting of two layers. The inside layer of strands are laid with Left Hand twist and the outer layer has a RH twist. The two layers are "counterlaid" and the wire is moderately torsion resistant (compared to specialized anti-torque cables used for spinnaker furlers). . This is what most of your standing rigging is made of. And it's what is typically recommend for use in wire luff furlers by the manufacturers.



Below: Here's 7 x 19 cable. It has quite a different surface appearance. It consists of 7 bundles with each bundle consisting of 19 small diameter wires. There's a total of 7 x 19 = 133 fine wires. It is much more flexible than 1 x 19 and less torsion resistant. 7 x 19 usually has a slightly lower breaking strength than 1 x 19 of the same size. It is usually made of 302/304 alloy.
 
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Jun 25, 2004
1,108
Corsair F24 Mk1 003 San Francisco Bay, CA
@BobbyFunn - I enlarged the picture you posted. What is the cable in the luff made of? It doesn't look like wire rope; is it a dyneema line? But it's not a very high resolution picture so I could be totally wrong.

2018-04-05_14-00-34.jpg
 
Apr 16, 2017
841
Federation NCC-1701 Riverside
The wrapping? I moved the jib tack/tie to the top its just some thin double braid.

That eye going around the thimble is 1x19 stainless. North Sails put that in. They didnt like the electrical tape wrapping the stay from top to bottom. Shpuld they have covered the cable?
 
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