Running Rigging

Ward H

.
Nov 7, 2011
3,645
Catalina 30 Mk II Barnegat, NJ
I'm ready to purchase running rigging for my 93 C30. I believe the halyards are 3/8" and I plan on Samson XLS.
I think it has 3/8" for the jib and main sheets but I saw a spec saying 7/16".
Any suggestions on line sizes for a C30 Tall Rig?
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,760
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Ward, one of the many C30 websites or their Yahoo or Google group should have a C30 manual. Catalina manual are very good for specifying line diameters and lengths for both standard and tall rigs.
 
Oct 22, 2014
20,995
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
Hey Ward. Progress. Check the manual as line size (diameter) is limited by the sizes of the mast halyard sheaves.
 

Ward H

.
Nov 7, 2011
3,645
Catalina 30 Mk II Barnegat, NJ
Stu, the manuals I've looked at seem to only cover the wire rope/rope halyards. Plus, I'm hoping to learn what others have learned when outfitting their C30s with current technology line, knowing that Catalina probably used a generic type/size line.
But, I will take a look again. Maybe I missed something.
 

Ward H

.
Nov 7, 2011
3,645
Catalina 30 Mk II Barnegat, NJ
Maybe I missed something.
And I did.
In another copy of a manual I found three pages showing running and standing rigging specs.
This shows the halyards as 3/8", sheets as 7/16" and other control lines as 5/16".
I think that answers my question.

Dave, Thanks. I will look at the rigging builder.

Thanks
 
Oct 22, 2014
20,995
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
Ward. The wire line halyard has a sheave with a narrow groove (for the wire) and a wider groove (above fore the line). I had that. With the mast down we removed the sheave we rotated the sheave on a shaft and applied a roll of sand paper to open and widen the groove to change it from wire/line halyard to just line. Then upgraded the line to a low stretch line.

It is working great.
 

Ward H

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Nov 7, 2011
3,645
Catalina 30 Mk II Barnegat, NJ
Good Tip John. What type line did you use for low stretch? I'm going back and forth on either Samson XLS and upgrading to MLX when I replace the sails or just going with MLX now.
By 93 they were using all rope halyards. I am replacing the masthead sheaves with BB versions.
 
Apr 8, 2010
1,942
Ericson Yachts Olson 34 28400 Portland OR
I would suggest 5/16" T-900 or equivalent. Works great for our tall-rig O-34, and holds in our original clutch stoppers. Remember that those old fat tails were part of the wire-to-rope original halyard and the rationale for the oversize line tails was reassuring customers @ boat shows that they could get an easy grip on the line. Good enough idea, but the "reassuring" line sizing was bigger than needed for the majority of sailors. Check the sheaves for scarring from the wire running thru them. We had all of our masthead sheaves turned/smoothed a wee bit on a lathe when we changed all 4 halyards over to all-rope over a decade ago. Watch for sales on that line... at least once a year some vendor will have a half-off sale... including WM.
:)
 

Ward H

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Nov 7, 2011
3,645
Catalina 30 Mk II Barnegat, NJ
I'm curious.
All of the line selection guides I've looked at list polyester double braid like NER Sta-Set or Samson XLS for cruising boats. For racing they start listing lines with polyester outer cover and high tech core for low stretch.

On cruising boats in the 30' to 36' range, what is the advantage of going with the higher tech lines?
Is it for performance?
Is it the ability to go down a size while retaining strength and low stretch?
Is it just for higher strength to eliminate possibilities of breaking while in secluded areas?

I certainly don't mind going down a size to 5/16" and using a high tech line like Samson MLX or Warpspeed II for my halyards. I just thought it would be overkill.

5/16" halyards (no halyard winch) and 3/8" jib and main sheets worked well on my 25' boat. I'm sure additional forces on running rigging on a 30' boat are handled by mechanical advantages, not additional muscle or hand grip, so these sizes should work well on my C30.
Am I correct?
 
Jul 6, 2013
221
Catalina 30TR, Atomic 4 2480 Milwaukee
You can buy sheaves for all-line halyards from Catalina Direct. I got the ball bearing version, which made the effort of hauling much easier.

I like the hand feel of 7/16 sheets. I wouldn’t want to go smaller.
 

Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
7,999
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
Ward, it's kinda all the above... lower stretch, weigh reduction, easier handling.
If you haven't already, take a look at the Annapolis Performance Sailing website. Go to the rigging services section and specifically, check out the running rigging page. There you'll get a glimpse of the higher tech lines' applications. Specifically, look at this page which shows some of the splicing applications. On my boat, rather than strip the cover off a High tech double braid, such as warpspeed, I ADD a cover to a dyneema core, such as amsteel. The cover works better in the winch and I splice in a "luggage" tag eye to accommodate a shackle.


My 27 footer has 5/16" cover with 3/16" core. The splices are pretty easy... instructions on the Samson website
 
Oct 22, 2014
20,995
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
Ward, decision on halyards, based on stretch and weight aloft for cruising boat that is likely to sail in ocean. Line replaces wire/line halyard. I have two 17 self tailing winches on mast to handle sails. Sails run up mast under hand power so winch serves an in case function.

Sheets are based on hand feel and weight. Polyester Yacht braid. Works well in the winch and blocks. Feels good in the hand. For light weight sails (drifter) small light weight line preferred. Sheets are constantly adjusted in maintaining sail trim so stretch is not really an issue for my boat. Sheets get cleaned as needed
 
Apr 8, 2010
1,942
Ericson Yachts Olson 34 28400 Portland OR
Hi Ward, I would answer 'yes' to your logical questions.
Further, the higher $ cost of better line can be lessened a lot just by watching for major sale reductions. Worked for us anyway.

While some sailors try to divide up the world into Racing and Cruising, it's really about getting maximum performance from your sails and rigging with the least drama.
No matter why we are out sailing, we do not want our sails to bag out in a puff due to stretchy halyards. :(

And then there is the uptick in ballast ratio. While it's sort of like chasing "nano knots", we found that changing out all four halyards from wire sections to all-line took about 30# off the rig on an average of about 25' above the water. To me that's like adding a multiple of that weight to the base of out 6' keel. Subtle stuff, but overall performance is influenced by many little factors, and sailing around with a 'bundle' of ss wire up in the air is a factor that I can take some control over. :)

OTOH, the extra weight, down inside, of a half case of micro brew in the fridge ..... is not worthy of calculation or worry.

Cheers,
Loren
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
On my boat, rather than strip the cover off a High tech double braid, such as warpspeed, I ADD a cover to a dyneema core, such as amsteel. The cover works better in the winch and I splice in a "luggage" tag eye to accommodate a shackle.


My 27 footer has 5/16" cover with 3/16" core. The splices are pretty easy... instructions on the Samson website
@Joe ,

How do you do that? What do you use as cover? Yale? How do you taper the cover into the 12 strand?
 
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Feb 26, 2004
22,760
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Ward,

1. The main halyard should be reasonably low stretch. I made the mistake of using StaSet for my main halyard. On SF Bay in the wind, a perfectly set main developed scallops in the luff pretty soon. I recommend investigating something that will stretch a lot less.

2. Jib halyards, to me, aren't that "important" - I have mine on the mast and adjust the tack of the jib after it is unfurled to tighten the leach. Others may choose to have low stretch on their jib halyards, too, but then you need to release the halyard to get the tension out before you furl, and would lead me to recommend having the jib halyard run aft in this case. On this one: your boat, your choice. :)

3. Whatever you do, do not use StaSetX. It sucks.
 
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Ward H

.
Nov 7, 2011
3,645
Catalina 30 Mk II Barnegat, NJ
Thanks to all the responses it now makes sense to use lower stretch lines for the halyards.
I've been studying the APS running rigging guides, made a little spreadsheet to compare and pretty much decided on 5/16" NER V-100 for the main halyard. I first looked at VPC, then Warpspeed II but for less than $7 more (per halyard) the specs of the V-100 looks a bit better than Warpspeed II.

Stu's comments on jib halyards made me think about how I set up my O'day and what I will have with the C30.
On the O'day I recently switched to MLX but since the halyard was cleated off at the mast I would just set and forget.
On my C30 the jib halyard is run back to the cockpit with a line clutch and winch. I'm sure I'll want to adjust the halyard tension so I would think the V-100 would do well there also.
I don't plan to run a spinnaker but will run a spare jib halyard since the gear is there. Since this is a spare I may save about $50 and use VPC for this halyard.

For sheets I'm planning on either Samson Trophy Braid or XLS. I'm under the impression that you want some stretch in jib and main sheets to "soften" unplanned gybes and these sheets are trimmed often anyway.

Thanks
 

Joe

.
Jun 1, 2004
7,999
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
@Joe ,

How do you do that? What do you use as cover? Yale? How do you taper the cover into the 12 strand?
My most recent halyard project, I used the Yale. cover only, product. On previous projects I have simply purchased a less expensive double braid, such as Samson LS, and used it's polyester core to fish the new dyneema core into place. Cost wise... it comes out pretty close either way... unless there's a specific cover you might prefer.
Anyhow.... the cover advertised a built in messenger for inserting the core... but the product I received did not have it... so.. I fabricated a "fid" out of a piece of coat hanger wire, bending the leading point over for pushing smoothly through the cover's interior.
For each halyard I purchased 80ft of 3/16" Samson Amsteel II, and 40ft. of 5/16" Yale cover only. The difference between cover and core is 1/4" for all sizes. Pay attention to the chart and not the comments on the video...
You'll have to determine the length of cover based on your boat's rigging layout....you might give yourself a few extra feet of total length so you can position the taper point in a position to avoid the cover going too high or the core coming back too far... get it set then perhaps trim the ends of unneeded length.
To create the taper, or bury splice, follow the "Double Braid Class II Stripping Cover" instructions from the Samson splice guide.
For the shackle end, I prefer the "luggage tag" eye splice.. the dyneema doesn't really hold a knot too well and the big loop splice allows you to remove the shackle without cutting.
I spent about $100 apiece for the halyards and they look and perform exceptionally. Plus... it was fun!
 
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