Roller furling jib on a 222 - worth it?

kveach

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May 18, 2014
32
O'day 222 Gainesville
Well, I'm still working on refurbishing the 222 and just put up the old Schaefer system furling jib. It certainly has a lot of sag since it just attaches to the jib halyard. So I'm wondering whether I should bother to get a good modern roller furling jib that incorporates the forestay or just go with hank-ons. The boat lives on the trailer and the mast will be stepped on a regular basis. Oh, the sail is only a year or so old. Can I get it converted from the wire in the luff to hank ons? I'll be having all the standing rigging replaced soon so I s'pose there's a certain economy in deciding now if I want a modern roller furler. What do you recommend?
 
Apr 26, 2015
660
S2 26 Mid On Trailer
What model of Schaefer do you have? It doesn't go around the forestay? I'm trying to understand the sag problem. Sailrite has a video on the conversion to luff tape.
Lots of opinions and thoughts on hank on vs roller furling all over this site and the other sailing forums. Search it and you will read for days.
 

kveach

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May 18, 2014
32
O'day 222 Gainesville
Hi,
Thanks for your reply. It's the Schaefer system 350 and I see now that the P.O. did not leave me an upper T toggle to fit the upper swivel into the mast and use it as a headstay, so I just attached it to the jib halyard and hoisted it. Thus the excessive sag. Even with the proper toggle at the top and bottom, it seem like it would be a royal pain to get enough tension to connect it once the mast is raised since it has no turnbuckle or tension adjuster. Does that make sense?
 

kveach

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May 18, 2014
32
O'day 222 Gainesville
Oops,
I didn't state clearly that on the system 350 the luff wire that is sewn into the sail carries the headstay load and replaces the headstay.
 
Apr 26, 2015
660
S2 26 Mid On Trailer
I understand now. Many of the new furling systems will fit over the headstay wire rope so if you got new rigging now you can add furling later, especially if you already have a newer hank on jib. We have a Schaefer CF500 snap furl with a 135% genoa, on our 23, and it works well.

We are in the same quandary about furler or hank on jib for our S2 project boat. We are not big fans of trying to reef the sail on a furler because no matter what is added to the luff of the sail (foam, etc), it is still a bad sail shape. We do like the aspect of being able to roll the sail up from the cockpit and it's ready to go quickly the next time we sail. I'm turning 64 this summer and not sure how much longer I want to go forward on a pitching deck to reduce sail. I need to get 50 years of racing out of my head and start cruising and realize the sail will still suck us along even if the shape is not perfect.

As far as trailering goes, we trailer mostly and leave the headsail on the furler. The sail is ready to go after reeving the sheets so it's a time saver. The biggest issue is supporting the furler drum end that sticks out past the end of the mast when trailering.
 
Nov 26, 2012
1,653
Hunter 34 Berkeley
I prefer a hank on jib, especially for smaller boats. They just perform better. You get better shape and you can bring the foot of the sail all the way down to the deck. I find that it is not really that much trouble to drop the headsail vs rolling it up. If fact, on larger boats in heavy wind it can be easier.
 
Feb 20, 2011
7,990
Island Packet 35 Tucson, AZ/San Carlos, MX
The biggest issue is supporting the furler drum end that sticks out past the end of the mast when trailering.
I've dealt with this problem using some thin-wall PVC and a few coupling nuts.

DSC01344.JPG DSC01342.JPG
 
Nov 9, 2012
2,500
Oday 192 Lake Nockamixon
Hank-on jib + downhaul line = poor man's roller furling. Haha, that's what I do with mine, because it came with the HORRIBLE wire luff roller furling (original?) jib, and a newer, more crisp, hank-on jib. The old wire luff furler was always sagging, partially because it had old, polyester double braid halyard. It might have been better with a Dyneema cored halyard, and I also understand that Harken small boat wire luff furlers are much better functionally than the plastic Schaeffer unit that was OEM spec for 192/222. With my downhaul, I can quickly douse the jib, cleat off the downhaul so that the head doesn't sail back up the forestay, and cleat off the sheets with the clew amidships, and the sail is perfectly managed on the foredeck, to be bagged later at the dock. Just did it this past weekend in breezy conditions, because I looped back around under main to tow a windsurfer in. A) You know it's breezy when the windsurfers come out, and B) Her boom had popped off the mast, hence the tow. Things were going well, until 2 other windsurfers came up and decided they could get the boom back on the mast, so she wound up sailing in the rest of the way. I was also excited because it was the first time I got a chance to use my kayaking throw bag with floating rescue line. Bought that sucker for the boat "just in case." Now I'm justified! :D

I think it's definitely easier to step and unstep the mast without a furling foil on the forestay. It's best to have someone manage the furler during these procedures, so the furling drum doesn't bash around, and I tend to be stubborn and want to step and unstep all by myself.

Another reason I haven't moved to a good Schaeffer Snap-Furl system, is that if I did that, I'd be tempted to get a 135% genoa, and then I'd have to run jib track down the side decks, and that would be more outboard for worse sheeting angles. Then again, without a traveler to bring the boom onto the centerline, the boat doesn't point as well as it might. Honestly, the 110% works well enough for me, except those times when I consider getting a hank-on drifter for really light winds.
 

kveach

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May 18, 2014
32
O'day 222 Gainesville
Wow! Lots of good replies.
LeeandRick, it's nice to know some furlers will let me install over the forestay later if I choose to rerig now for hank ons. I'm not an experienced racer, but I want good sail performance to help me become a better sailor. My wife and I are spry enough that except for really rough conditions going up front to raise or drop the jib is not a big deal. But I thought if I could make the current Schaefer 350 furler work I'd give it a shot. But honestly even with everything sized right for the furler/headstay with wire luff to fit into the the mast with the right tension it seems like I'd have to loosen and tighten the shrouds and the back stay every time I step the mast and that seems like an awful time suck, versus having a turnbuckle or a quick release stay tensioner on the fore stay. FYI the 222 is a boat that has the main sheet connected to a triangle plate on the back stay, so having a quick release there seems problematic.

Mark, thanks for the thought about the heavy wind ease of dropping a hanked on versus rolling up a wire luff furler. We have a hanked-on 150 genoa on our "little" boat, an 18 foot Sanibel, and dropping it is usually trouble free and raising it on a broad reach is not bad, either. So like you I'm leaning towards just going with hank-ons for the 222.

Brian, your experience further convinces me to stick with hank ons for now. I at least want to become familier with how the current genoa track works with the current sail size before I go mucking things up. BTW when I single hand, I use my kayak tow bag as my safety line so if I go over I can pull myself back to the boat ladder. In addition to sailing my wife and I are avid rough water paddlers and kayak surfers in the Southeast.

Cheers to all. thanks for the good advice and happy sailing!

Oh, on a completely different topic, the PO pulled out the sink soI'd like to use the space for a storage/table/chart table unit. Any clever ideas that fit the limited 222 space?

Kevin
 

Fred

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Sep 27, 2008
493
Catalina 28 mkii 745 Ottawa, Ontario, CA
perhaps a bit tangential to the original post but I'm always surprised when people say that they trailer with the forestay on the furler. How far do you trailer? I always remove all my sails and canvas and sails when trailering. One time I left my companionway cover (sunbrella) on for a short ride home (about 20 miles of highway driving) and by the time I was home it was shredded! Even the loose end of my nylon tie-down strap tends to shred in no time. No way that I would leave my expensive sail on!
 
Apr 26, 2015
660
S2 26 Mid On Trailer
perhaps a bit tangential to the original post but I'm always surprised when people say that they trailer with the forestay on the furler. How far do you trailer?
I've trailered over 9000 miles (14500 km) with the 135% genoa furled on the furler and properly tied to the mast, in the past 2 years. The only issue is some bugs being smashed. The awning furled on the side of my truck camper had no issues either. I don't leave anything on the boat that might, well, cause a flap. ;)
 
Jun 2, 2004
1,923
Oday Day Sailer Wareham, MA
Oops,
I didn't state clearly that on the system 350 the luff wire that is sewn into the sail carries the headstay load and replaces the headstay.
IT DOESN'T replace the headstay, it sets just aft of the headstay (assuming setup as the OEM furler was on the 222.) You should have a attachment loop just aft of the forestay to take the drum and lower swivel of the luff-wire furler, upper swivel connects the halyard to the head of the jib. If you wish to convert to a hank-on jib, it is easy, just have a sailmaker add hanks (or buy them and add yourself). The luff-wire can stay In place with this option. You may need to relocate the jib halyard block a little higher on the mast (closer to the forestay) to get the sail to set right, but it might not be critical. When the 222 was first introduced, O'DAY tried to use the Schaefer System 100 furler, which is about the right size for the jib on a Day Sailer, and WAY too small for the 222 or 192.

If you do wish to keep a furling jib, and there are a lot of good reason to do that, although I'm not sure if it might complicate trailering), I can recommend the CDI Flexible Furler (FF-2) if price is a concern, if price is less of a concern, the newer Schaefer "SnapFurl" is a well-made unit and like the CDI has a one-piece polymer headfoil which will be tolerant of trailering mishaps. Like any good over-the-headstay furler, these will require removing the luff-wire and adding a bolt-rope to the luff. The CDI uses an internal halyard for simplicity, the Schaefer SnapFurl uses your current jib halyard.

I've included a few pictures, the brochure cover sows the original jib setup, the next pic shows how much it tended to sag to leeward. The 2 pages from a 222 Owner's Manual (from TRINKA), show the setup of that original jib furler, fig 12 shows the lower swivel with drum and Fig 19 show the upper swivel.
 

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mm2347

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Oct 21, 2008
241
oday 222 niagara
I've gone w/ hank ons and have run a jib downhaul and halyards back to the cockpit. Works great! I got rid of the wire in the jib luff and replaced it w/ low stretch line. It was only a bit of a pain. You'll find with the back swept spreaders once your rigging is set up and adjusted you only have to remove the bottom attachment to the deck of the forestay to transport. I've installed and enjoyed an adjustable traveler. It has been the single best improvement. The jib setup would rank #2 and running lines back to cockpit #3 as my improvements. Above all don't get too carried away and stall out. Get the boat in the water, keep your eyes open for deals on parts and improve as you go --- but get the boat in the water and sail.
 
Nov 9, 2012
2,500
Oday 192 Lake Nockamixon
perhaps a bit tangential to the original post but I'm always surprised when people say that they trailer with the forestay on the furler. How far do you trailer? I always remove all my sails and canvas and sails when trailering. No way that I would leave my expensive sail on!
You can buy a roll of narrow stretch wrap on a handle to securely wrap standing rigging and a furled headsail to the mast. I got mine at Home Depot? http://www.homedepot.com/p/Pratt-Retail-Specialties-5-in-x-1000-ft-Stretch-Wrap-5005001/202029371
 
Nov 9, 2012
2,500
Oday 192 Lake Nockamixon
BTW when I single hand, I use my kayak tow bag as my safety line so if I go over I can pull myself back to the boat ladder. In addition to sailing my wife and I are avid rough water paddlers and kayak surfers in the Southeast.

Kevin
I think you guys ought to test this once before you rely on it. There are many anecdotes of people who have tried, and failed. Some folks tow a long line behind the boat, thinking if they go overboard, they can swim to it, grab on, and pull themselves back. One guy tried testing it, and he failed. Sailing along at 4 knots, it's a lot more drag than you think. Consensus I've read is that it's better to have a short enough tether so that you DON'T go over the side and into the water. (Dragging along the side by a longer tether also does not allow you to pull yourself back in the boat.)

I like to test stuff. Like the time we kayaked in the Pacific and my buddy washed out of the boat in the surf zone (much more energy than the weak-a$$ waves in NJ) and we learned that farmer John wetsuits with neo spray skirt and dry top doesn't do much to keep you warm when immersed in the chilly Pacific for 45 minute swims. (But are fine if you don't come out of the boat.) Or like the time I deliberately capsized my 15' Harpoon 4.6 daysailer so that I'd know better how she behaved if I had to right her. (With no wind, the foam filled mast would keep the boat floating on its side, but with any breeze blowing against the hull, it would turtle completely. Mainly because I omitted the masthead floatation from the head of the main sail when I bought new sails. 2 guys could right from turtle.)
 

mm2347

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Oct 21, 2008
241
oday 222 niagara
Last weekend I was out on a friends 32' boat. Varying winds in direction, speeds, and gusts changed conditions all day. The boat had a 140% jib on a roller-reefer. It took lots of attention at the helm to roller the sail in or out. We had some jamming of the lines and twisting of the jib but with lots of sail, it was better than manhandling that much cloth. The Oday 222 w/ a stock jib is easy to handle. With a jib downhaul, most roller jam or sail twist problems are avoided. The 222 does ok when the wind comes up by dropping the jib, securing the downhaul and clue sheet which holds the jib on the deck, then sailing w/ main only. Basically, it's always compromise. Money, convenience, personal preference, and availability are always a factor.
 
Mar 28, 2016
19
O'Day 222 Key Largo
I just ordered a new custom 115% jib and CDI FF2 from www.thesailwarehouse.com. The boat currently has a Harken Small Boat Cruising Furler on it. It uses the same wire luff jib setup as the original Schaefer, but it works much better and would have kept using it had a series of domino effect occurrences not happened. The jib I have now is a good sail by Skipp Elliot, but it's a little small and some of the stitching is starting to let go because of sun damage (it's an older sail without sun protection fabric on the leech). I took the jib home and got a quote from Sailcare to fix it up and add a sunband, and they wanted almost as much as a new sail. So I though I'd keep using the old jib until it completely gave out. When I went to put the sail back on, I couldn't find the upper swivel! A replacement is $200! Started thinking about a new sail again, and got a price of $350 for a 115% jib, but another $150 to add the wire luff. So instead of $350 + $150 + $200 = $700, I got the new jib and new CDI furler for $875. Whew! If anyone wants my old Harken furler drum, I'm sure it would be an upgrade for anyone still with the old Schaefer. $100 maybe? A new one is $350.

Joe

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