Right size for a Asym Spinnaker for a 97 Oceanis 351?

Ted · Jul 16, 2017

You might also consider buying an ATN Tacker if using an asymmetrical spinnaker.

Bill Roosa · Jul 16, 2017

Sheets (they are just rope, WM has what you need and don't go too large or the weight will effect the set of the asym) need sheet blocks to properly lead the 21' foot to the winch. I use blocks with snap links and use the toe rail holes to position it correctly for the wind conditions. Your boat may not have toe rail holes so you may need to engineer something that does what a sheet car does. Sheets should be twice the length of the boat due to asyms not being able to tack (all wind changes require a jibe). You will also need a tack block to control the luft tension and some place to attach (snap link again?) that to the bow ahead of the forestay.
Is your asym halyard run through a halyard turning "block" at the mast? A regular mast halyard sheave needs an additional mechanism that allows the halyard to accept side loads (another block basically) that normally attaches to the mast and feeds the halyard at any angle to the mast sheave.
Your luft length is a bit long and will not allow you to adjust the luft tension. Use 90% of the forestay length as the luft of the asym.
Sailrite can make your asym for a lot less than $675 also and you get to pick the colors!!! They also have dousing bags and I HIGHLY recommend you get and use one.
You did not indicate what wind range you intend to use the asym in. Sailrite will need the max wind speed (15 knots?) you will be using it in to correctly pick the sail fabric weight.

Gunni · Jul 17, 2017

An asym is a system, you will want some kind of device to hold the tack at the forestay (ATN Tacker, NP parel beads), and you definitely want a sail control (sleeve or top-down furler) if you are cruising shorthanded (and even if you are not). I won't comment as to whether the sail Bacon's is offering is right for your boat other than to say if it wasn't made for my boat's specific dimensions I would pass for one that was. Bob Pattison at Neil Pryde is the OEM sailmaker for Beneteaus and is a wealth of knowledge.

jssailem · Jul 17, 2017

Bob Pattison, Gunny do you know if he is related to "Harry Pattison" at ELLIOTT / PATTISON SAILMAKERS
in Newport Beach?

Gunni · Jul 17, 2017

John; Do not know.

jssailem · Jul 17, 2017

I've had great success with E/P sails. Harry was easy to work with and a positive help in getting an asymmetrical for the 15ft Montgomery I owned.

bob_pattison · Jul 17, 2017

>>>Bob Pattison, Gunny do you know if he is related to "Harry Pattison" at ELLIOTT / PATTISON SAILMAKERS
in Newport Beach?<<<

Yes, he's my older brother...we worked and sailed together for many years and trophies.
I'm the good looking one and he's the smart one..or maybe it's the other way around?
But for sure, he is the more talented racing sailor...natural, easy on the water, sees the big picture around the course. Competitive as all get out and it made my crewing for him pretty easy...
The two us happened to be at the right place at the right time in terms of the evolution of sailmaking..and the pc CAD/CAM revolution which really started in 1980...but happy to say that either of us could whip you out a sail on the floor the old fashioned way...which is to say we're old enough to "remember when".
There's a whole long list of great sailors and sailmakers, yacht designers (doug peterson rip) that came out of the southern California sailing scene in the early 70's and I was lucky enough to be part of it.
And a lot of us are still in the industry today!
bp

jssailem · Jul 17, 2017

Thanks Bob. great to know.
John

bob_pattison · Jul 17, 2017

Here's my take on your questions regarding the spinnaker for the 351.
1. find out how old it is.
6 years or older forget it.
2. find out what weight nylon it is; .5 - .75 or 1.5oz.
Discard the .5oz if it is. would prefer 1.5oz for durability and uv life
3. Size:The size you listed is almost exactly what we build for the 351.
4. Luff length and "I" are not the same measure so disregard post about this being too long. (the max luff is the hypotenuse of the triangle...I and J being the right angle sides.
We build ours at just under 43' and trust me the tack will fly about 4-5' above the bow....This is because spinnakers have a lot of 3dimensional shape...take a piece of paper and curve in half and see how much closer the two ends get to one another...no where close to the 11" the flat piece of paper is...that's your spinnaker.
5. Short luff like this gives you FLEXIBILITY in shape control...ease it up for downwind, and sock it right down to the bow for reaching in light airs. I've sail a Beneteau 411 at 52 degrees with an asymmetric and about 6 knots of true wind.
6. The foot and leech are just about perfect. It will be just a shade over 170% on the foot which is what we like to see on boats without sprits or some sort of pole system.
7. If you buy a 'new' spinnaker for your boat for 'a lot less' than $675.00, buyer beware. There is $400.00 in material cost in this sail and that's before you cut, sew, finish, ship and pay for overheads. Just be smart when you are doing your research. Chuck out the high and low on principle and then go from there.
8. Sheets. Rule of thumb for asymetrics is that each sheet needs to be 2.5 X the length of the boat.
Polyester braid is fine...big enough to handle at least 3/8.
9. You'll need a downhaul line, same and it can go to bow cleat or run all the way aft to the cockpit. Personal preference.
10. I like our beads for the tack, makes the sail perform better and more stable. Not necessary though
11. dousing sock: ATN is the top end, but sounds like your on a budget so you might consider the chutescoop which we use on boats under 45" and in 30 years had two warranty issues..and they are more cost effective.
12. attached copy of 'our how to guide'...reprint from old sailing mag article, but still very widely distributed.
13. Learn to use it in the very lighest of air to learn how when and why.
14. ALWAYS HAVE AT LEAST 3 WRAPS of the sheet on the winch. This is a close to 800sqft sail and if you gybe in breeze with one or no wraps you are going to be hurt, burned hands, pulled into the lifelines or otherwise beat up. If seen people go from port to starboard face first into winch and life lines in less time then their mind could tell their hands to 'release'.
My quick 2 cents worth.
Bob Pattison

jssailem · Jul 17, 2017

Nice guide. Even a new sailor might avoid an embarrassing mistake if they read and apply this info to their adventure.

Gunni · Jul 17, 2017

bob_pattison said:
I've sail a Beneteau 411 at 52 degrees with an asymmetric and about 6 knots of true wind.

Wow, there's a stretch goal for our boat! That is within 10 deg of our genoa. I struggle to hold a course 75 degrees with the asym. Clearly I need to up my game!

bob_pattison · Jul 17, 2017

Gunni said:
Wow, there's a stretch goal for our boat! That is within 10 deg of our genoa. I struggle to hold a course 75 degrees with the asym. Clearly I need to up my game!

Can do it though...by bringing the tack down, you're taking 4 feet of curvature out of the luff...and it gets very 'genoa' like...
But: the caveat is wind strength...sailing angles with spinnakers are all about wind...less wind=higher, more=lower..so sailing at 55-60 is probably impossible in 10 true....
Also, caveat 2: we did not have the main up, as I was doing a seminar on 'how to'..and by not having the main up, everyone could see what the kite was doing...which by the way for others reading is good light air day to teach the Mrs and kids on how it works...
b

Jackdaw · Jul 17, 2017

Gunni said:
Wow, there's a stretch goal for our boat! That is within 10 deg of our genoa. I struggle to hold a course 75 degrees with the asym. Clearly I need to up my game!

Remember thats 52 degrees APPARENT. True is never much above the beam. Here we are doing 6 in 6. Beam reaching with the main so tight it looks like we're beating.

Gunni · Jul 18, 2017

Great shot, you have that spin tack tight as a banjo string!

bob_pattison · Jul 18, 2017

Yep, nice light day, smooth water, mainsheet in tight, spinnaker tack brought down to the bow. (and you can see how this really flattens out the kite...across the mid-section it's not much deeper than a full light number one)
Awesome and thanks for the illustrative picture!!
bp

Jackdaw · Jul 18, 2017

bob_pattison said:
Yep, nice light day, smooth water, mainsheet in tight, spinnaker tack brought down to the bow. (and you can see how this really flattens out the kite...across the mid-section it's not much deeper than a full light number one)
Awesome and thanks for the illustrative picture!!
bp

This is SO the key word when it comes to close AW reaching with kites. So many people think that the luff has to be straight when trying to maximize close AW reaching, but that's a false goal. The trick is to get the sail FLAT. Some curve in the luff is good (and needed) to flatten the sail. One of the biggest mistakes I see with people with syms and Code 0s is trying to sail them with as straight a luff as possible.

So you flatten the sail, and drive the luff. A small amount of curl is OK (even good). That's why racing asyms have the chevrons on the luff, so you can see that curl. But if you loose it, you have to drive down to 'pop the luff' back into position!

oldlaxer1 · Jul 18, 2017

I was having a hard time looking past the girl..er I mean grill!

Jackdaw · Jul 19, 2017

oldlaxer1 said:
I was having a hard time looking past the girl..er I mean grill!

Always important to pick crew-members that are well equipped.

Washdcguy · Jul 25, 2017

Flying our Neil Pride 1600 sq ft Asymetric on Imagine That! Beneteau Oceanis 45 on Galveston Bay this year. Racing the traffic up the Galveston Ship Channel. LOL. It was blowing about 6-7 knots on about 80 AWA and we were clipping along at 5 knots plus, incredible. Bob gave me same advice and followed his instructions. Note ATN Sock and the ATN Tacker, I tried the beads but changed to the ATN. Note Tack line is lead back to cockpit and is sitting on coach roof winch. When you need to Gybe slacken Tack line to let Sail go out ahead of Boat and leave plenty of room between forestay and luff of sail for sail and sheets to pass around the front of the forestay. Great sail, thanks Bob, thanks Neil Pride, thanks 1st Mate Donna (beautiful wife) for video, thanks Imagine Dragons for sound track, we were feeling on top of the world. We could of sheeted in a little more but it was definitely a "no drama" sail as can be seen by our relaxed attitude.

Right size for a Asym Spinnaker for a 97 Oceanis 351?

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