rigging routing puzzlement M25

[RussC]

I finally had time, motivation, and decent weather all at the same time today, which allowed me to pull the M25 out of the boat-port, raise the mast, and raise the sails for the first time so I could do a test run of the running rigging etc. We just bought the boat last October, and haven't been able to get it wet yet ourselves. A couple things have me cocking my head and going.... wuuuuh. I guess I understand about compromises, but is this truly the way the jib (100%) sheets are routed? it seems....... odd, that they would run over the edge of the cabin like that, but I don't see any alternate way to do it. Is this the way other 25s are originally set up as well??

Similar puzzlement on the main sheets when the boom is out past 1/3rd or so and the lines are drug over the pulpit and safety lines. I guess it is what it is, but huummmm…………..

We've only sailed dinghies in the past, so this is a bit different for us.


Phil says to expect an early spring, so we're getting ready



Russ

 

[justsomeguy]

I guess I understand about compromises, but is this truly the way the jib (100%) sheets are routed? it seems....... odd, that they would run over the edge of the cabin like that, but I don't see any alternate way to do it. Is this the way other 25s are originally set up as well??

Run the jib sheets outside your shrouds, and certainly not through those deck-mounted fairleads. My lazy sheet is visible here.

when the boom is out past 1/3rd or so and the lines are drug over the pulpit and safety lines. I guess it is what it is, but huummmm

Yep, it is what it is. Some folks have installed mid-boom sheeting, with or without a traveler across the forward cockpit seating area.

 

[walt]

The 26S has two ways to be set up on the jib sheet. One routing is inside the shrouds for the smaller working jib (ie, around 100%) and a second routing outside the shrouds for the larger genoa (maybe 135 or 150%). Im not sure if this will help since this is a different boat but in the picture below, I highlighted in red the routing of my jib sheets for a 110%. This is a smaller jib size so the sheets go inside the shrouds. I have replaced the stock pad eye with a jib track but the stock pad eye was about 1.5 to 2 feet in front of the block on the track (red line) but still in line with the track.

I also have a yellow arrow pointing at the jib fair lead for when the larger genoa is used. For the larger sail, the sheets go outside the shrouds and then to the yellow arrow fair lead - then to the winch, then to the same cleat.

 

[RussC]

Run the jib sheets outside your shrouds, and certainly not through those deck-mounted fairleads.

What size foresail are you using there justsomeguy? I can't see in your photo, but do you have the same track mounted pad eye on the cockpit rail like mine? if so, then I assume that it's the first (and only) stop on the way to your winch??

Thanks,
Russ

 

[justsomeguy]

What size foresail are you using there justsomeguy? I can't see in your photo, but do you have the same track mounted pad eye on the cockpit rail like mine? if so, then I assume that it's the first (and only) stop on the way to your winch??

Thanks,
Russ

It's a 150%, and yes, the same track-mounted fairlead, first and only.

 

[RussC]

I have replaced the stock pad eye with a jib track but the stock pad eye was about 1.5 to 2 feet in front of the block on the track (red line) but still in line with the track.

I also have a yellow arrow pointing at the jib fair lead for when the larger genoa is used. For the larger sail, the sheets go outside the shrouds and then to the yellow arrow fair lead - then to the winch, then to the same cleat.

View attachment 119343

Thanks Walt. That tends to somewhat confirm the routing on my 25 then. it's forecast to get a gully washer here today so I broke it down and put her back under cover until the next heat wave. I wish I would have had the foresight to calculate where the sheet should turn at the deck for my size sale…. but duhhh on me.
I think it was BWY that said these boats don't sail particularly well with mid size foresails, which may account for the location of the cabin top pad eye, as well as the cockpit mounted track that might be used for a 150 or +. I duno… I'm just speculating here, but if it makes sense to me it must be true .
Cabin top winches would be nice as far as line routing, but isn't it also a bit harder to single hand that way?

Thanks,
Russ

 

[RussC]

It's a 150%, and yes, the same track-mounted fairlead, first and only.

I suspected so. do you ever use a 100-110? and do you set it up the same as for the 150?

 

[justsomeguy]

I suspected so. do you ever use a 100-110? and do you set it up the same as for the 150?

I'll furl the 150 down to that size, so, yes. Same routing of the sheets.

 

[RussC]

I'll furl the 150 down to that size, so, yes. Same routing of the sheets.

OOps. sorry. I should have seen that you have a furler there.

Thanks for your input.

Russ

 

[justsomeguy]

You're very welcome.

 

[willsnow]

Cabin top winches would be nice as far as line routing, but isn't it also a bit harder to single hand that way?
Thanks,
Russ

Yes and yes. It's doable with a tiller extension, but having crew makes it much easier (and for more enjoyable sailing, I think)

 

[Piotr]

I have the same set up on my M25. The 100% jib sheet should be routed from the forward pad eye inside shrouds along the edge of the deck/cabin top (near lifeline) to the cleat on top of the cabin. For some unknown reason you have a jam cleat RIGHT IN FRONT of that cleat with another line that is hanging from an extra (vertical) cleat. that is NOT the usual arrangement. For genoas you rout the sheets outside the shrouds to that track mounted pad eye in the cockpit. the way Justsome guy has it is NOT the way Macgregor intended it to be (note, I did NOT say it's "incorrect...").

 

[Piotr]

Thanks Walt. That tends to somewhat confirm the routing on my 25 then. it's forecast to get a gully washer here today so I broke it down and put her back under cover until the next heat wave. I wish I would have had the foresight to calculate where the sheet should turn at the deck for my size sale…. but duhhh on me.
I think it was BWY that said these boats don't sail particularly well with mid size foresails, which may account for the location of the cabin top pad eye, as well as the cockpit mounted track that might be used for a 150 or +. I duno… I'm just speculating here, but if it makes sense to me it must be true .
Cabin top winches would be nice as far as line routing, but isn't it also a bit harder to single hand that way?

Thanks,
Russ

Cabin top winches make it difficult to move about the boat with the top up (it's difficult even without them). Not sure what BWY meant - my favorite sail is a 130% (former reacher from a Columbia boat). With both rudder and keel down and locked, that is the IDEAL set up - boat is most balanced and does not have any (or very little) of weather helm, which is very noticeable (but not bad) with a 100% jib. HOWEVER, they are correct in a sense that you really cannot get very close hauled - I have a Sabre 28-I now and it does a much better job at it than Mac under genoa.
I hope that helps.

 

[walt]

Here is the BW link on sail size http://bwyachts.com/web catalog 31203/sails/Headsailsizes.htm I have a 110 on a furler for one additional reason.. a larger genoa that "closes the gap" by sweeping the deck is best for light wind.. but you have to live with a very large blind spot.. and its directly in front of you. There are ways to deal with that while sailing (or just raise the jib at the bottom but that defeats the closing the gap benefit) but not seeing where Im going.. just stresses me out too much.

For the smaller jib (like 90 - 110), those cabin top winches are completely useless (probably the same for the 25 and 26 foot boats). I do use one of them on one side just to tension the jib halyard but never use them for jib sheets. Moving them back for better genoa positioning is probably not a bad idea.

Another problem I have been thinking about recently is illustrated in the drawing below and that is when I am single handed (yep, nicer with some company but my company usually speaks by barking and has a limited vocabulary) is that its hard to control the jib sheet from the cabin top cleat from the position you are normally sitting for sailing. Since I also sit up near the companionway so I can also control the traveler, the "angle issue" is even worse. A little off topic here but I would like a smoother way to control the cabin top jib sheet (both releasing and tightening) from the solo sailing position. You dont need the winch for the smaller sail but right now that angle of the line coming out of the cam cleat adds a lot of drag on the line. I always have to temporarily go to the downwind side of the boat to make any jib sheet adjustments.

 

[RussC]

For some unknown reason you have a jam cleat RIGHT IN FRONT of that cleat with another line that is hanging from an extra (vertical) cleat. that is NOT the usual arrangement.

I think the "vertical cleat" you refer to is actually just one of the rope hook gizmos that are scattered around the cockpit and used to gather up coils of any extra rope. I expect I'll use them a lot on this boat also, as I hate having any unneeded line under my feet.
Under the lines shown in my pic (port side) are the labels "jib halyard" and "downhaul". there is no cam cleat on the starboard side, but under the starboard horn cleat it's labeled "main halyard". I'm not sure how the po was using these, but I'd guess he used the horn cleats for the jib and main halyards and maybe stuck the jib downhaul in the cam cleat. or visa-versa [shrug].
It's sounding like the "correct way" to set these up is pretty much [however you prefer] . I wonder if Mac actually even had a "standard rigging setup" when the 25s were being built.
because I essentially single hand even when I have the admiral or others with me, I want the halyards and downhaul to be on the cabin top and the sheets near me in the cockpit. pretty much the way they are. I'm still puzzled by the way some lines are routed, which causes them to be drug around corners and over safety lines etc, and I wonder how much of that was oem and considered acceptable when designed. If it was an aircraft they wouldn't let you on the runway with it that way ., but I don't fly anymore and this is sailing .

Thanks,
Russ

 

[RussC]

For the smaller jib (like 90 - 110), those cabin top winches are completely useless (probably the same for the 25 and 26 foot boats). I do use one of them on one side just to tension the jib halyard but never use them for jib sheets. Moving them back for better genoa positioning is probably not a bad idea.

With the jib sheet on the cabin top I think I would go crazy trying to single hand. even on our little Capri 14.2, with the cam cleats right next to me on the cockpit rails wile seated, I was sometimes frustrated with the lazy sheet getting hung in the cam cleat. with the line hanging over the cabin top I would think it would be almost impossible to keep the lazy side from self cleating during a tack. arrrgggg. not to mention having to stand forward to do it.

Another problem I have been thinking about recently is illustrated in the drawing below and that is when I am single handed (yep, nicer with some company but my company usually speaks by barking and has a limited vocabulary) is that its hard to control the jib sheet from the cabin top cleat from the position you are normally sitting for sailing. Since I also sit up near the companionway so I can also control the traveler, the "angle issue" is even worse. A little off topic here but I would like a smoother way to control the cabin top jib sheet (both releasing and tightening) from the solo sailing position. You dont need the winch for the smaller sail but right now that angle of the line coming out of the cam cleat adds a lot of drag on the line. I always have to temporarily go to the downwind side of the boat to make any jib sheet adjustments.

Maybe my having the jib sheets running over the cabin top corner isn't such a bad idea after all??

Thanks,
Russ

 

[Piotr]

Sorry, I meant "port" for that cam cleat, of course. I have 3 horn cleats on top of the cabin on each side of the gangway. the outside cleats are for jib sheets, the port side middle is for the topping lift, and the port inside cleat is for the jib halyard. On the starboard side the middle is for main sail halyard, and the inside is for the reefing line (Harken single line system). I have winches for the genoa sheets at the end of each genoa track, and we DO need them! BTW, that boat is pretty stable even if overpowered - I carried 180% and full main in 8-10 KTS wind with no steering problems. (If you hear a strange hum [NOT the keel cable hum - that's different] and feel a bit of vibration, the boat is overpowered). I was trying (at the request of my son) to dip the rail, but was unsuccesful... :-(

 

[RussC]

ha ha. I recall seeing a video somewhere of a guy in a Cat 22 that tried (and eventually succeeded) multiple times to get the spreader in the water on a very windy day. might be fun on a hot summer day. can I borrow your boat to try it?
Not this one, but similar:


Thanks for the input,
Russ

 

[Piotr]

LOL. from my perspective the boom is directly over the centerline....but the wind seems to be below 10 kts.

 

[justsomeguy]

Here is the BW link on sail size http://bwyachts.com/web catalog 31203/sails/Headsailsizes.htm

I learned something new today. Thanks, Walt!