Reefed sail shape not so good ...

JRacer

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Aug 9, 2011
1,331
Beneteau 310 Cheney KS (Wichita)
Just have to be careful when you stick your nose in where you have room but no rights to it as the one with the rights is fully within his right to close that door on you, then you will have fouled them. Other point is if you were the inside boat and had an overlap (your bow in front of the extended plane of their stern) at the three boat length circle then that outside boat was required to give you room to round in a seamanlike manner.
 
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May 17, 2004
5,032
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
Just have to be careful when you stick your nose in where you have room but no rights to it as the one with the rights is fully within his right to close that door on you, then you will have fouled them.
True, although if the other boat changes course they have to give you room to keep clear. If they just run right up into you then the foul is on them. If they hold a constant course then yes you'd be fouling them if it turns out there's not room.
 

JRacer

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Aug 9, 2011
1,331
Beneteau 310 Cheney KS (Wichita)
Good point! But...

Appeals - Case 63—at a mark, when space is made available to a boat that is not entitled to it, she may,
at her own risk, take advantage of the space.

This does not entitle the outside boat with rights to hit you intentionally. It does, however, make it clear that if the boat with the rights has to alter her course/change her maneuver in any way to avoid the intruder, the intruder is "out". And, the onus is on the intruder to prove that she didn't foul - a tough road to hoe!
Further, the boat with the rights can alter her course however she need to so long as she is rounding the mark in a seamanlike manner. Again, can't intentionally hit but that's the limit!


Appeals - Case 26—a right-of-way boat need not act to avoid a collision until it is clear that the other boat is not keeping clear. However, if the right-of-way boat could then have avoided the collision and the collision resulted in damage, she must be penalized for breaking rule 14.


I've done it many times, but when I did, I darned sure knew who was on my outside and what their skill level was and knowledge of the rules. A good skipper who knows the rules will bury you if you attempt this on them.
 
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Apr 16, 2017
841
Federation NCC-1701 Riverside
Dumb question...Are there names of offensive and defensive moves in racing? When i was learning chess i learned like a robot by learning just the rules. Each game, each turn was a new day.

If i played against talented pros, id totally throw off thier beginning game, then theyd crush me in a fast end game. Pros dont play by rules...they play by orchastrated manuvers. Chess music chords.

Is there a similar playbook in racing, e i. when in this scenerio, "the jackdaw offensive", the best response is the "jracer defense", that then sets you up for the "Captain Morgan takedown"
 
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Aug 1, 2011
3,972
Catalina 270 255 Wabamun. Welcome to the marina
The Jackdaw Offence is probably best summarized as such attention to detail that you don't have to worry about anybody being left in the same timezone, and if they happen to be in the unenviable position, knowing exactly if the boat will or will not fit into that space right there. If not, make sure you are on the right side of the rulebook and do it anyway. :)
 
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May 17, 2004
5,032
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
Good point! But...

Appeals - Case 63—at a mark, when space is made available to a boat that is not entitled to it, she may,
at her own risk, take advantage of the space.

This does not entitle the outside boat with rights to hit you intentionally. It does, however, make it clear that if the boat with the rights has to alter her course/change her maneuver in any way to avoid the intruder, the intruder is "out". And, the onus is on the intruder to prove that she didn't foul - a tough road to hoe!
Further, the boat with the rights can alter her course however she need to so long as she is rounding the mark in a seamanlike manner. Again, can't intentionally hit but that's the limit!


Appeals - Case 26—a right-of-way boat need not act to avoid a collision until it is clear that the other boat is not keeping clear. However, if the right-of-way boat could then have avoided the collision and the collision resulted in damage, she must be penalized for breaking rule 14.


I've done it many times, but when I did, I darned sure knew who was on my outside and what their skill level was and knowledge of the rules. A good skipper who knows the rules will bury you if you attempt this on them.
All true. I was thinking more of the start, for example, where Appeal 117 is a good example. Basically that appeal says a leeward boat can't change course and turn into a boat pinned between her and the start mark. Case 63 is a better example for the mark rounding Scott described away from the start.
 
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Feb 26, 2004
22,760
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Dumb question...Are there names of offensive and defensive moves in racing? When i was learning chess i learned like a robot by learning just the rules. Each game, each turn was a new day.
Yes there are, but the sailing rule book may be longer. :)
It's similar but not identical, because while chess pieces move, there's only one competitor.
Because it's so complicated, some folks never get over the beginner stage.
The only way to get better at it is: sail, sail, sail and read read read the rules again and again.

Most sailboat racing rule books have examples, like the cases cited earlier, which are great examples of how things actually work.
 

JRacer

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Aug 9, 2011
1,331
Beneteau 310 Cheney KS (Wichita)
Can recommend this: "Paul Elvstrom Explains the Racing Rules of Sailing"
Also, if one of the "North U" Programs gets put on nearby that Bill Gladstone does, those are well worth the time and cost. I believe their materials and CD's are available separately from the program but if you do the program you will get a lot more out of it. https://northu.com/
Years ago, my son organized one at our club, presold the deal, and we flew Bill in to do a two day program.
 
Nov 10, 2017
258
Hunter Legend 260 Epidavros
I know absolutely nothing about racing or any deep technology of sails. My previous yacht had a 150% fore sail that used to bag when reefed like the OP's
I replaced this with a 120% yankee cut fore sail on recommendation of a life long racing sailor, it's overhaul performance over the 150% was amazing, full sail or reefed.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
I know absolutely nothing about racing or any deep technology of sails. My previous yacht had a 150% fore sail that used to bag when reefed like the OP's
I replaced this with a 120% yankee cut fore sail on recommendation of a life long racing sailor, it's overhaul performance over the 150% was amazing, full sail or reefed.
A great overall choice. But a yankee (high clew) headsail is really designed for reaching, and is not optimized for upwind performance. That is the domain of low-clew sails.
 
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Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Dumb question...Are there names of offensive and defensive moves in racing? When i was learning chess i learned like a robot by learning just the rules. Each game, each turn was a new day.

If i played against talented pros, id totally throw off thier beginning game, then theyd crush me in a fast end game. Pros dont play by rules...they play by orchastrated manuvers. Chess music chords.

Is there a similar playbook in racing, e i. when in this scenerio, "the jackdaw offensive", the best response is the "jracer defense", that then sets you up for the "Captain Morgan takedown"
First all, for EVERYONE.

The Racing Rules of Sailing are intended as a SHIELD, not a SWORD. Their primary purpose is to 1) prevent contact between boats, and 2) create order

The exception is pure match racing, which is very specialize 1v1 racing which none of us do.

Using ‘space freely given’ is not a sword. When it happens its very clear. On the other hand, ‘Pushing it’ is not space freely given.

90% of on the water encounters are covered in the first four rules of Section 2, ‘When Boats Meet’. Each one of these rules is exactly one sentence long.

To your question, you do develop a sense of similar on-the-water scenarios develop, but I’m not sure you could identify them into a chess-style openings, gambits, etc. But an interesting idea!

Next,
Join US Sailing and get their interactive rule book for iOS and Android. It has Dave Perry’s (US top rules guy) guide ‘Understanding the RRS’ built into each rule as hyperlinks. It gos into great depth on each rule. An invaluable guide.

Next, get and read/browse US Sailing free Appeals Book. Here.
https://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Appeals-Book-for-2017-2020.pdf
 
Mar 26, 2011
3,402
Corsair F-24 MK I Deale, MD
My last boat had a foam luff 135 by quantum that kept excellent shape through the full range, down to storm size. All I can say is that the designer was a genius. The jib (both of them, no foam) on my F-24 does quite well reefed, but they are relatively flat with little overlap.

There will always be a noticeable difference between tacks with a roller reefed sail; disturbing the air flow on the windward side is less damaging than on the leeward side.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Also, if one of the "North U" Programs gets put on nearby that Bill Gladstone does, those are well worth the time and cost. I believe their materials and CD's are available separately from the program but if you do the program you will get a lot more out of it. https://northu.com/
Years ago, my son organized one at our club, presold the deal, and we flew Bill in to do a two day program.
One thought about this. The North guys are great. We have then in once a year. But in terms of cost/benefit however, I’d spend that money on having them talk about trim and sailing... really their forte. Most clubs have ‘rules gurus’ that if they are decent at presenting, can do a great job educating the club. Advice... break it into sections and separate nights like:
Starting rules
Open water meetings
At Marks

A few minutes of rules overviews, and then go into scenarios with boat models on a whiteboard. Always a great discussion.
 
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Nov 10, 2017
258
Hunter Legend 260 Epidavros
A great overall choice. But a yankee (high clew) headsail is really designed for reaching, and is not optimized for upwind performance. That is the domain of low-clew sails.
This is what's great with this forum, learning from the experienced . . . . .one should never too old to do this!