Reefed sail shape not so good ...

[Scott T-Bird]

I pulled a few photos from the facebook page that illustrate our problems in Race 2 We're in he center having crossed the line first, but by this photo from the committee boat, the Tartan 40 was blowing by us. The eventual winner is the boat on the right side of the picture.

This from the Tartan is just after they have passed us. Now, my reefed headsail is showing obvious problems as does the boat directly behind us. The Catalina 30 with laminated tri-radial sail is rapidly gaining and will soon be out in front of us, but will trail the Tartan until much later in the race.

I think we're trying to point to high but I'm guessing the furled headsail is not a good shape. That tri-radial sure looks nice and fast! They'll soon be gone. Just after the first upwind mark we took the reef out on the mainsail, but we continued to reef the headsail on upwind legs. I think that hurt our position a lot.

Racing is over for me until September. I had my gall bladder removed with emergency surgery on Thursday and I had a small hernia done while they were at it. Recovery is 4 weeks and then we are travelling in August, so my season is over pretty quick! I think we have an event or 2 in September or later that we can enter.

 

[Jackdaw]

Three thoughts/things:

1) You need to sail your own race, and sail within your boats limits. If you cannot point with other boats, don’t try. To the degree that this is a function of the boats design, your rating will factor that in. Always sail fast.

2) The sails look tired. And in particular, the genoa has way too much depth (belly) in in now. A foam on the luff designed to pull in extra fabric in the middle might help that. In that second picture it looks like you are way too high, its hard to backwind even a blow-out genoa like that.

3) get sails designed for where you race. If you are always racing in the breeze, get a jib. The downside is you are non-spin, so I betting you like to roll out the extra sail downwind. So maybe the rolled genoa is your best bet. But even on a new sail, the foam luff will help.

 

[Ward H]

Nice evaluation. Looks like Afraid Knot has their headsail furled about the same amount and has the same shape issues.
Do laminate headsails hold their shape better, allowing the boat to point higher?

Bummer about being out of sailing for the month.

 

[Jackdaw]

Often boats will not notice that until they are racing. Then they try and hold a lane, and that happens.

A sailmaker can add a foam luff to a sail to help correct the extra depth. He might say the sail is too far gone to matter.

 

[jssailem]

Good idea on the foam luff alternative. Less costly than a new sail. But the consummate racer would be looking too a new sail or a new boat... What ever money can allow.

Really like the observation to sail the boat to her own course not attempt to sail the competitions course. Do find what works for you and then sail that style.

When one finds that none of that achieves the desired results then a new boat often is sought.

One that will smoke the competition and leave them wondering in the foam wake.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Often boats will not notice that until they are racing. Then they try and hold a lane, and that happens.

A sailmaker can add a foam luff to a sail to help correct the extra depth. He might say the sail is too far gone to matter.

Thanks for those comments and the ones above. I have used that sail almost exclusively for at least 10 years and it is too big for our normal conditions. Our typical summer wind conditions seem to be 15+ knots during afternoons, so my choice for a new headsail would be substantially smaller. I knew that a foam luff would help the shape, but I was thinking that it would not be necessary with the Harken furler, so I purposely didn't have it added to my sail, which was originally hank-on. For racing, I think I would consider having at least 2 head sails and remove the furler for racing and use the twin grooves for sail changes. We'd need to practice! This was my first look at how bad the sail shape actually is.

I don't think I was purposely trying to point too high. Northwest winds are typically more variable and I was continuously frustrated by not getting into a groove for wind angle. It seemed like I was continuously headed, and when I adjusted, the wind angle dropped way down below where I wanted. It was like being on a pendulum where I was either too high or too low and I could never find a consistent angle. I didn't have the problem nearly as badly the week before because the south wind is generally more consistent. But I was wondering if the horrible shape of the headsail could have been contributing to the pendulum-like behavior.

We're also having difficulty with positioning ourselves for mainsail trimming and working the controls effectively. It seems like a simple concept to say that we should always be trimming. The practice is more difficult with my set-up than it should be. We will be working on that as well. We have a difficult time easing in the gusts, which cause us to round up, loose momentum and ruin sail trim.

The one thing that is really fun and encouraging is that we quickly understand our weaknesses and it is fun to take steps to correct them. We haven't developed an overall sense of frustration … yet!

 

[TomY]

You and the Catalina with the laminated headsail had a good idea: reefed main, but the Catalina kept it's genoa full for best/fastest shape. That reefed sail plan can work well for many boats racing.

I think you should have let the genoa out full size to get a good shape, cracked off a bit for better speed with a little twist in the main to keep her on her feet.

Sail fast - first, pick a direction, second. If you sail the boat well, your rating should make up for the smaller slower, less weatherly boat (in theory).

New sails would really make a difference, but we all know that and buy them when we can.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Glad to hear you're fine after your surgery, recover well.

In the years I raced in SF, our C34 max headsail was 130. My largest was a 110. I did very well.

You may have seen this before:

A very illuminating and interesting discussion on co.com for those of you who might be in the market for a new jib.

http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=155362

Please read all three pages. Enjoy.

 

[shemandr]

I'd suggest a new 135 jib. In my former PHRF fleet, which sails in a similar sea breeze, a Tartan 33 ditched his 150 and put on a well made 135. I think he increased his PHRF rating too but I forget. He's been doing well, although he does suffer a bit downwind. But he sails against a gaggle of Alerion 28's which also suffer a bit downwind. I'd rather sail with a well shaped and sized jib and a reef in the main on a masthead boat than a rolled up jib.
Sorry about your Summer of recovery. Make the best of it and fall sailing is the best anyway.

 

[Justin_NSA]

Often boats will not notice that until they are racing. Then they try and hold a lane, and that happens.

A sailmaker can add a foam luff to a sail to help correct the extra depth. He might say the sail is too far gone to matter.

I was thinking foam myself. I must be learning something. I agree. Have the sail evaluated. Don't throw good money after bad.

 

[Jackdaw]

Had a PM asking about the function of the ‘foam luff’. Said I would answer here.

Regard the drawing below. Any headsail has ‘shape’ built into it; the draft depth that gives it its airfoil shape. This shape (or extra sail cloth) is greater in the middle that it is at their edges.

You can see this on the left. The full genoa has draft built in to the sail at the expected furling point. The sail is in RED, the chord and draft line in BLUE.

The middle shows the sail furled to that point. The foot and leech roll tight, but the fuller middle section sags out as it cannot roll tightly. Now the leading edge of the middle of the sail is way too ‘full’ and billows out, actually getting blown back ‘backwinded’ by the Apparent Wind hitting the luff when sailing closehauled. This is most noticeable when racing and trying to point... when cruising most will crack off and the symptom goes away.

With foam strips (or rope etc) sewn strategically into the middle of the luff, the extra bulk rolls the draft tight, and presents a much better shape to the wind.

Note that is is not a sometimes problem as suggested in earlier posts... this will happen with any large genoa rolled down to a jib.

The foam while a good idea is not an ideal solution.. the foam disturbs air when fully unrolled, and the thick rolled luff solves one problem but creates another.. namely a object blocking the smooth air as it approaches the sail.

 

[DrJudyB]

Based on the photo, that headsail looks like it’s 145 or 155 LP reefed to the area of approx 100%. By taking some measurements off the photo, I estimate it’s reefed to a 20% linear reduction, which corresponds to a 36% area reduction).

Even with a luff pad, that’s not going to be a very close winded sail if you reef it down that small. 150% genoas have a comparatively deep draft for extra power and they don’t reef very well compared to a 135. That’s true even though sail designers make the draft on reefing headsails little shallower than non reefing ones, and they also add a luff pad to get an acceptable furled shape that is without wrinkles and a shallower draft.

Here’s the bottom line: You can’t sail as high with a reefed sail as a purpose-designed sail, and that’s doubly true if you reef a 150-ish more than 10%. If you want to race your cruising sailboat competitively, be prepared to change headsails to suit the conditions of the day, just like a competitive racer does. Get a new 135 with UV cover and luff pad for cruising....
plus a dedicated jib and a genoa without the extra and expensive UV cover and luff that a cruising headsail requires. That’s the best of both worlds.

Roller reefing headsails are wonderful for cruisers who want convenience and who don’t want to change sails, but a boat with one single RF headsail can’t compete with a boat that Carries three or more headsails, each one optimized for a very narrow range of conditions.

Furthermore, I’m sorry to say that the mainsail looks tired and stretched out to my eye, and I suspect the same is true of the Genoa. (Please don’t shoot the messenger). Your boat will sail much flatter, faster and higher with new sails.

IMO, it sucks when racers with three headsails join a local PHRF fleet of casual cruisers who have just one headsail on a furler. It ruins it for the cruisers. IMO, Cruisers with only one sail on their phrf certificate should get their own fleet and their own start if possible. Otherwise, it’s an arms race and cruisers get shut out.

On edit: I’m half serious and half joking about in the last paragraph. Judy.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Based on the photo, that headsail looks like it’s 145 or 155 LP reefed to the area of approx 100%. By taking some measurements off the photo, I estimate it’s reefed to a 20% linear reduction, which corresponds to a 36% area reduction).

Even with a luff pad, that’s not going to be a very close winded sail if you reef it down that small. 150% genoas have a comparatively deep draft for extra power and they don’t reef very well compared to a 135. That’s true even though sail designers make the draft on reefing headsails little shallower than non reefing ones, and they also add a luff pad to get an acceptable furled shape that is without wrinkles and a shallower draft.

Here’s the bottom line: You can’t sail as high with a reefed sail as a purpose-designed sail, and that’s doubly true if you reef a 150-ish more than 10%. If you want to race your cruising sailboat competitively, be prepared to change headsails to suit the conditions of the day, just like a competitive racer does. Get a new 135 with UV cover and luff pad for cruising....
plus a dedicated jib and a genoa without the extra and expensive UV cover and luff that a cruising headsail requires. That’s the best of both worlds.


Furthermore, I’m sorry to say that the mainsail looks tired and stretched out to my eye, and I suspect the same is true of the Genoa. (Please don’t shoot the messenger). Your boat will sail much flatter, faster and higher with new sails.

IMO, it sucks when racers with three headsails joins a local fleet of casual cruisers who have just one headsail on a furler sail. It ruins it for cruisers. IMO, Cruisers with only one sail on this phrf certificate should get their own fleet and their own start if possible. Otherwise, it’s an arms race and cruisers get shut out.

Yes, by my measurement, the genoa is 144%. I measured LP at 15.17' and J is 10.5'. I measured luff at 33.58', leech at 32.67' & foot at 15.83' (those measurements were not really carefully done - just quick work to generally see what I have). I think it was a little larger before being re-fitted for the furler. I'm actually surprised from the photograph that it is rolled-up as much as it is. I don't think I intended to roll so much up. It may be difficult to judge how much is rolled up from the helm. I'm glad I've seen these photos! It opens the eyes. I might have to make some marks to gauge the dimensions. The mainsail and genoa have seen the same use going on 15 seasons now. I'm not surprised the shape is bad. Also, the genoa did not start out as a reefing headsail. It was only converted a year ago.
It doesn't bother me if there are racers that join the fleet with a more competitive approach. I'd much rather see first-hand what is possible than to be perpetually wearing blinders in a non-competitive fleet. The results really mean very little to me at this point. We're happy to be mixing it up and having fun. This seems to be a small, cruising oriented fleet whom are happy to accept all competition. If I don't get to see by direct comparison how a boat with a laminated tri-radial headsail performs, what would be the point of racing? In my opinion, it is more fun to be chasing and improving against competitors than to lap up hardware among competition that doesn't try. I take no offense at all to taking my share of the lumps! I'll have to put some thought into an inventory of sails.

 

[JRacer]

Also, be aware that when you are sailing on someones weather hip like that you will be feeling a header as the wind is bent off their sails and diverts the true wind coming into your sailplan. So, all things being equal, the boat to weather will not be able to point equally to the leeward boat. Tack and get out of there, then sail your boat and don't pinch!

 

[shemandr]

IMO, it sucks when racers with three headsails joins a local fleet of casual cruisers who have just one headsail on a furler sail. It ruins it for cruisers. IMO, Cruisers with only one sail on this phrf certificate should get their own fleet and their own start if possible. Otherwise, it’s an arms race and cruisers get shut out.

I agree. I've argued semi seriously that there should be a class for cruisers who don't want to take the BBQ off, nor the extra anchors and all that other stuff. Boats who don't want to change sails or re-configure their sail plan. And maybe want to take their dingy. So long as they do it the same for every race. I think you'd see a jump of participation from those boats who stay on their moorings but who might show up for a spirited sail with a purpose. Get everybody home by 5 to be family friendly. No drift-fests. Portsmouth style ratings. I'm not saying more competitive sorts shouldn't have their arena but I've seen enough of a wolf coming into the cruising division and chasing everyone else out and back to their moorings.

 

[Davidasailor26]

I might have to make some marks to gauge the dimensions

Our sail came with two vertical marks on the foot at recommended reef points. I think some sails have reinforcements at those points as well. Ours doesn't have that, but the lines do help give a reference on how much sail is still out.

 

[Jackdaw]

Also, be aware that when you are sailing on someones weather hip like that you will be feeling a header as the wind is bent off their sails and diverts the true wind coming into your sailplan. So, all things being equal, the boat to weather will not be able to point equally to the leeward boat. Tack and get out of there, then sail your boat and don't pinch!

Pretty sure they got rolled by that Tartan 4000 who took that picture... so that situation will not last long! ;^)

 

[Jackdaw]

I agree. I've argued semi seriously that there should be a class for cruisers who don't want to take the BBQ off, nor the extra anchors and all that other stuff. Boats who don't want to change sails or re-configure their sail plan. And maybe want to take their dingy. So long as they do it the same for every race. I think you'd see a jump of participation from those boats who stay on their moorings but who might show up for a spirited sail with a purpose. Get everybody home by 5 to be family friendly. No drift-fests. Portsmouth style ratings. I'm not saying more competitive sorts shouldn't have their arena but I've seen enough of a wolf coming into the cruising division and chasing everyone else out and back to their moorings.

This gets tried all the time, with varying degrees of success. Normal racing says the boat and crew are in racing trim, and that makes the rules and the competition easy to understand. First boat (OD or corrected) wins and was that best that day. Full stop.

Add in ‘Cruiser’ allowances and rules, and things get murky. Most of the ‘allowances’ are arbitrary.. who knows how much an all-chain rode slows you down? Getting beat because someone has crappier sails than you?

And then you have trophy poachers. Our club now allows PHRF 1 boats to races some series in PHRF 2. A good idea in theory, but its now being used by some mid-pack PHRF 1 boats to go down and get a series win in PHRF 2. Or up in Bayfield, where we have a Mumm 30 offshore sport boat with a pro crew who skipped their natural home in the turbo-sport buoy fleet and is sailing in our mid-distance fleet. Yikes!

Then in the end, what have you won? I’m with @Scott T-Bird , I’d rather know where I stand vs the good boats.

 

[Jackdaw]

Some thoughts on racing the highest rated PHRF boat in the fleet:

I’ve got quite a bit of experience in this, for years the First 36.7s (rating 72!) were the ‘slowest’ boats in the AIS buoy fleet. So you have to deal with that. But most of this advice applies to PHRF racing in general.

Sail your own race. PHRF racing is not about ‘beating other boats’. It is about getting around that course as fast as you can. Not sailing the shortest distance, not beating boat XX. You want to sail fast, and sail in the right direction. At all times. Always always always sail fast. Get to know what ‘fast’ feels like on your boat.

Stay in clear air. Bigger faster boats will roll you. Get used to that. They will drive thru a lee-bow and pass you to windward. They will blow through a wind shadow and pass you to leeward. You end up in bad air. Always be thinking if ‘taking a hitch’, or a quick double-tack to get to windward and clear air is a good idea. It often is, in particular is the breeze is lighter and the windshadows of disturbed air are longer.

ALL YOU DO IN A PHRF RACE IS LOSE TIME. You never gain it. Bad tack? You will never get those lost seconds back. There is a optimal time it should take you to get around the course, and all you do is give away time by 1)being slow 2)sailing in the wrong direction 3) slow maneuvers. So practice your maneuvers (in particular tacks) so you do not lose time, and feel comfortable doing them when needed for tactical advantage. Gybes are less important, your boat is pointing downwind anyway so its harder to loose time with a bad gybe.

Get extra stuff off the boat. This often matters more on small boats, where the ‘typical load’ of cruising stuff (grill, cruising anchor, etc etc) are a larger percentage of the boats weight than on a 40 footer.

Hike hike hike! Legs out, body under the upper lifeline. Flat is FAST. Every time I see a boat ‘racing’ when crew scattered around the cockpit or sitting on the top of the boat I shake my head. The flattest boat almost always wins.

Keep your head in the game. With the highest PHRF rating, YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO CROSS THE LINE LAST. You have to correct well to win. To do well you have to sail hard and fast, even when there are no boats around you to keep the blood flowing, or after all other boats have finished.

 

[Ward H]

I'm learning a lot from this thread. Thanks