Reducing fancy gear, siren crying kids.

Apr 26, 2018
137
Catalina Catalina 30 Bayview
This evening I took all 3 kids out on the boat to give their pregnant mother a break. All was well with sandwiches and pop. Wind was gorgeous S-SW 5-8 knots. Had the full main up and rolled as much genoa out as I could with too big a sail on the furler.

IMG_4033.jpg


This photo was taken with near flat calm, once we round out of the bay, there is high mountains on both sides of the lake which funnel that 5-8 knots into puffs of 15 to 20 in places. My 2 younger boys freaked out and began my favorite "siren cry." Well it had to come sometime.

The owner of the boat has many fancy, but old, gear on the rig to "ease singlehanding" that I admit I really hate. I wanted to get some opinions on that fancy schmancy stuff. My opinions are below, but I wanted to see if there was concensus.

First, I love the bimini, but the dodger really bungs up managing lines and single
handing. when I stand on the cabin house top to manage sail I am constantly in fear of stepping on it and tearing it. I hate the loss of visual clearance. The tiller is not long enough to stand on seats and see over dodger, and Im not tall enough to see over it from the cockpit.

Lines run back to cockpit: I get this from a perceptual safety standpoint, but in practical application they cause issues such as hockles and jamming when I douse sail. There is so much friction in the system I hate it with frequent up/down to remove jammed lines and hockles. With Lazy jacks the 2 make my likelihood of falling in the drink worse. I much prefer the lines to the mast with a pin rail with clear decks.

Lazy Jacks: I took them off tonight. Damn things are so frustrating with full batten main, they make me go up and down from the cockpit ten times in a blow, they really don't contain the sail, the dodger and bimini do a better job anyway. It requires me to be dead into the wind to manage the raising and lowering the sail, which in our area means I have to motor a lot to find a clear spot to do that with boat traffic.

Reefing gear: this is not a complaint. Finally got double line for single reefpoint in place. I like single point, but boat is not set up for it, double line works great.

Roller furling: I will admit when my son started the siren cry, it was nice to roll the sail in without going on deck. But I hate the damn thing. It is the reason I have never had it on any boat I have ever owned. The primary issue is that the sail is a 170 on a Harken mod 3 furler, the sail is WAY too big and that causes the drum to jam with line when there is still 5-6 wraps of sail on it. If it worked properly with a solid set up, I might grow to like it, but if it was my boat, I would have a hank on jib with downhaul set up. I guess I am old school.

These are all great problems to have after being down with engine and transmission failures all season. This is my 4th real sail on the boat, of course my persnickety bitching is starting right?
 

jviss

.
Feb 5, 2004
6,745
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
My general recommendation is to not change anything for the first full season. Things that frustrate now my be figured out later. Keep notes.

Hockles in lines are simply that they are coiled incorrectly. Not a system problem.

Lazy jacks or Dutchman, take your pick. Both work when set up right. I wouldn't go without one or the other.

Roller furling is great. If your furling line is jamming it could be that you are not keeping enough tension on the furling line when you unroll the sail.

Nice pic! Good luck.
 

TomY

Alden Forum Moderator
Jun 22, 2004
2,758
Alden 38' Challenger yawl Rockport Harbor
Nice photo and write up. You deserve an A+ for taking young kids out, no easy task.

For what it's worth after raising 2 kids under sail, I tried to sail for the most apprehensive person (youngest, least experienced), on the boat. When I have a guest that hasn't done much sailing, I still try to sail for them.

Think about reefing the main on your boat way before you think you'll need it. You'll find the boat sails flatter-better in gusts. We used to race quite a bit. One reef in the main with an overlapping genoa, is usually the fastest sail combination in gusty conditions.
 
Jan 1, 2006
7,039
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
First around here they is a saying, I'll attribute to Stu, "Your boat, your choice." I'm with you on most of your observations.
Plenty of boats sail with a binimi and no dodger. Unless you can grab your dodger for a handhold it probably makes egress from the cockpit more dangerous. They are difficult to see around, over or through. You can sail with it collapsed in most installations.
I like my halyards at the mast. So much less friction. I just sailed on an old Tartan 37. With the halyard exit plate above my head it took all of 10 seconds to raise the main. The real key is the placement of the exit plate. The crew can take up the slack from the cockpit, which is what we did.
Lazy jacks? I'm not that big a fan. They look like clutter and when it comes to take the main down most skippers want you to flake it on the boom anyway. The key to that is the guy at the mast who lets the sail down at a pace that allows flaking. Foot on the halyard.
I'm a fan of slab reefing with a reefing line and a hook for the luff. I have yet to sail on a boat with single line that gets the clew tight enough and the luff tight at the same time. And there's stretch to contend with.
I think the 170 is way to big for the boat. A nice 135 would trim better, and the furling line would fit on the drum. On my Ranger we used a jib sail cover bag which was nearly as easy as a furler.
 
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Ward H

.
Nov 7, 2011
3,645
Catalina 30 Mk II Barnegat, NJ
Great photo! I see many more "Come on kids, let's give mom a break" days ahead.
I agree with the others. Start out reefed. Shake it out if it gets too boring for the kids.
I'm taking out some friends on Monday. One has very little boat experience and no sailboat experience. Even though the winds are forecast to be on the lighter side, the direction is usually puffy. I'm planning on starting out with a reefed main. Depending on whether she squeals in delight or fright when we heel, I'll consider shaking out the reef.
Here's my thoughts on your issues:
1. The dodger really bungs up managing lines and single handing. when I stand on the cabin house top to manage sail I am constantly in fear of stepping on it and tearing it. I hate the loss of visual clearance. The tiller is not long enough to stand on seats and see over dodger, and Im not tall enough to see over it from the cockpit.
I agree and for the same reasons. My wife saw no need for it so we took off the canvass but left the rear bow of the frame in place. It has hard supports so it makes a good railing to hold onto. My wife loves it when moving around the boat.

2. Lines run back to cockpit: I get this from a perceptual safety standpoint, but in practical application they cause issues such as hockles and jamming when I douse sail. There is so much friction in the system I hate it with frequent up/down to remove jammed lines and hockles. With Lazy jacks the 2 make my likelihood of falling in the drink worse. I much prefer the lines to the mast with a pin rail with clear decks.
Since my mast was down for shipment I took the opportunity to replace the masthead halyard sheaves with ball bearing sheaves. This removes a lot of the friction. I also occasionally spray McLube Sail Kote on the sail slugs, mast exit blocks and the deck organizer. I can raise my main by hand until the last couple of feet, then use the winch.
As jviss mentioned, hockles are caused by poor line coiling practices. Here's a link that @jssailem shared a while back which really helped me.
http://www.apsltd.com/aps-advisor/coil-braided-sailboat-lines-expert-advice/
I now coil all my halyards, mainsheet and traveler lines in a figure 8 by wrapping the line around a winch and one hand. Once the main is up that halyard is coiled and layed out of the way. Once the mainsheet is set I coil the excess in a figure 8 and lay it on the bench or just in front of the companionway. When I douse the main, I lay out the halyard on the bench so the line feeds off the coil without tangles.
I haven't succeeded in doing a figure 8 coil hand to hand like the video shows.
I saw a mount for a cam cleat that you mount on the mast. If working the halyard at the mast you can lock and unlock using the cam cleat. If the halyard is pulled tight below the cam cleat, it pulls out of the cleat. This allows you to raise the main from the cockpit but go to the mast to lower. I haven't figured out a way to do this with internal halyards.
I've found I raise the main from the cockpit. I release the halyard for lowering, then move to the deck to help pull it down. Unlike my last boat the C30 provides a stable platform to work from.


3. Lazy Jacks: I took them off tonight. Damn things are so frustrating with full batten main, they make me go up and down from the cockpit ten times in a blow, they really don't contain the sail, the dodger and bimini do a better job anyway. It requires me to be dead into the wind to manage the raising and lowering the sail, which in our area means I have to motor a lot to find a clear spot to do that with boat traffic.
We have plenty of room to head into the wind so I guess I'm lucky in that. I just had lazy jacks installed. I haven't had a problem with them so far. My system uses a single line to tighten or ease them. The line is cleated at the mast. I start out with them eased. The main goes up without catching on them. Before dousing the main I tighten them so they better catch the sail. I do have to go forward to pull some of the sail down but now I don't worry about flaking or sail ties until I'm in my slip. In my slip I again ease the LJs. They make it easier to flake the main before putting on the sail ties and cover.
I guess if I was always in a protected area when lowering the main I would forego the LJs.
@Stu Jackson has a method of easing one lazy jack and keeping the other tight to reduce issues with full battens. Maybe he will jump in and explain it better than I can.


4. Reefing gear: this is not a complaint. Finally got double line for single reefpoint in place. I like single point, but boat is not set up for it, double line works great.
Reefing is a must. My main has two reef points, I use only one. I have single line reefing, will eventually set up two line reefing or a line for leech and hook for luff.

5. Roller furling: I will admit when my son started the siren cry, it was nice to roll the sail in without going on deck. But I hate the damn thing. It is the reason I have never had it on any boat I have ever owned. The primary issue is that the sail is a 170 on a Harken mod 3 furler, the sail is WAY too big and that causes the drum to jam with line when there is still 5-6 wraps of sail on it. If it worked properly with a solid set up, I might grow to like it, but if it was my boat, I would have a hank on jib with downhaul set up. I guess I am old school.
I agree, the 170 is way oversize. I have a 150 and will be having it cut down to around 135 this winter. As said, keeping tension on the furling line is critical to getting a good wrap on the drum. Can you go to a smaller size line to fit more on the drum? Another trick is to de-core a length of the line at the drum. This removes thickness allowing more line on the drum. I did this to solve the problem on my old boat instead of going down a size.
You may learn to love the furler when you have a sail that fits it much better. Furling the jib from the cockpit is so nice.

"This is my 4th real sail on the boat"
Again I agree with jviss. Give yourself some time to learn how to handle things better. With only my previous boat to compare to, I made a list of things to change after my first few times sailing the C30. Now with around two dozen day sails on the boat my list of upgrades/changes has been re-priortized several times. Still on the top of my list though is cutting the 150 genny back to a 135. I just don't need that much foresail.
 
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Mar 2, 2014
44
Catalina 22 Ocean Springs, MS
Awesome job with the kids! Four kids, though? Ugh! Hope you have many future excursions on the boat with everyone!
 
Jan 18, 2016
782
Catalina 387 Dana Point
I love my stowable lazy jacks. They don't interfere with the sail while hoisting or sailing. Deploy them and my douse procedure for the main is turn into the wind and let the halyard go as fast as it can. Get back to the slip, sail ties on, and stow the jacks.

#1 'fancy' thing I like for shorthanded sailing? An Autopilot. You'd be amazed how much easier stuff is if you don't need to man the wheel/tiller. My main halyard is on the mast (and I pretty much like it that way, surprisingly). I've on many an occasion popped the boat onto auto, gone up to the mast, hoisted the main, and walked back to the cockpit. All while inside the harbor.

As for those kids.. heck, that's called "Crew" - they look like they'd make great sheet trimmers :)
 

Gunni

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Mar 16, 2010
5,937
Beneteau 411 Oceanis Annapolis
You are missing an important tool there Uralite, a baby sitter. For the cost of a teenager with swim team credentials and maybe water-safety training you would have the backup you need to enjoy sailing.
 
Oct 19, 2017
7,732
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
Great photo. Terrific memory to have.

I like just about every item you mentioned, especially the dodger. By the sounds of it, some of the items you mentioned may need a little tweaking to get them right. Your lazy jacks shouldn't interfere, maybe tension them forward a little more, the drum on your roller furler sounds too small for the job, but 175 is huge! The dodger maybe is wrong for the boat. I'm use to them on bigger boats where they are easy to move around and they provide a wind-free zone for napkins, cards, paper plates, etc. When family is trying to eat and relax while under sail. I don't know about halyard in the cockpit. Not within my experience. I like the idea of them, but raising and lowering sails usually happens at the beginning and end of the sail, so falling overboard is not a big concern. Reefing, however... whatever I can do to stay in the cockpit under the conditions where I would reef is a good thing. And, I love roller furling, just love it.

-Will (Dragonfly)
 
Jun 14, 2010
2,081
Robertson & Caine 2017 Leopard 40 CT
@uralite - where you wrote" The owner of the boat" were referring to the prior owner? Or are you complaining about someone else's boat? If it's your boat you've received some good advice above. If it's not, you don't have to use it if you don't like it.

Also, it's been my experience that kids will get bored quickly if they're just passengers. They need to learn about the operation of the boat and become involved as crew (sail trimming, lookout, steering, etc.) and they need to feel success and appreciation for their efforts. Or they need to have other activities to distract them. That may not be practical until your kids are a bit older. They are also likely to be frightened if they don't feel in control (or secure that dad's in control). Your post reveals some underlying frustration with your experience, and I respect your decision but this might not be the right time to sail as a babysitting activity. I gave up boat-owning for over a decade, until my kids were old enough to enroll in sailing camp, and I didn't buy another family boat until they were telling me they wanted one.
 
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Apr 26, 2018
137
Catalina Catalina 30 Bayview
Good morning fellas. My iPhone died this weekend, there's a pain and level of awareness how stuck on the thing I am.

Thank you for all the replies. I have a unique arrangement with the current owner of the C30. She is the owner and we coop for labor and some cost. It is a 1982 C30 tall rig that was updated with some serious cruising features about 15 years ago. When we started this arrangement in the spring the transmission was toast and I did a lot of work (too long) on it as an amateur with the help of this board. I have really enjoyed this arrangement, she is a very nice person and she has needed help with the boat for basics and for getting her out. The boat has been out in the weather for at least 10 years uncovered in North Idaho and its fancy cruising gear is in a state of condition which also does not make it likable. I am in a place that would not allow me to have any boat with 4 kids and saving for a house in this market. Yikes. So my need to temper my frustrations is because it is not mine. We talk about making changes, try them out, put them back if she does not like it.

I have been sailing all of my life on fiberglass sailboats, I spent 3 seasons sailing on schooners in Maine as deck crew. I will admit that spending time on those boats has really, really colored my sailing world view on the basics that don't break and work well. I did spend 10 years in the deserts of AZ with no boat so I am rusty.

You know what? I think there is a tiller pilot!? Ill look into that next time I go up!!

My kids really love coming with me to the boat. I knew that my 2 boys have not experienced the sensation of heeling, we will revisit that as we go. They had the same experience with just being on the dock or hiking on the trail overlooking a cliff, or swimming in the lake. I just really pick my days carefully, I do have limited access. This coop has shown me that we are really at the pontoon boat stage right now, but that is another time.
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,760
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
@Stu Jackson has a method of easing one lazy jack and keeping the other tight to reduce issues with full battens. Maybe he will jump in and explain it better than I can.
Lazy Jack Trick

Many folks complain about full battens getting caught up when raising the mainsail. They then spend a lot of time moving BOTH sides of the lazy jacks to the mast.

We developed an easier way with our lazy jacks.

We have a small cleat on the forward starboard side of the boom. When we put the halyard on the headboard, we move ONLY the starboard side of the lazy jacks forward and snug them under the forward side of the horn of this cleat.

Then, when we raise the mainsail, instead of going exactly head to wind, we bear off a tad to starboard so the wind is coming from the port side of the bow.

We then raise the mainsail and it doesn't get hooked on the lazy jacks even though the port side jacks are still there.

Been working for 20 years.

Yes, we have to go forward again to unhook the starboard lazy jack for dousing the sail if I forget to do it right when the main is raised, but there's never any hurry. The drill is: after the main is raised, I unhook that starboard lazy jack, so they're both ready to go when we drop the sails at the end of the day.

So, for those of you with lazy jacks, consider doing only one side.

Your boat, your choice. :)
 
Jun 14, 2010
2,081
Robertson & Caine 2017 Leopard 40 CT
My lazyjacks are attached outboard on the spreaders, and they are wide enough aloft to allow a fairly wide range (about 40 degrees) of combined* angle while raising the full-roached full-battened main.

* plus or minus 20+ Each side, port starboard
 

FDL S2

.
Jun 29, 2014
469
S2 7.3 Fond du Lac
You know what? I think there is a tiller pilot!? Ill look into that next time I go up!!

My kids really love coming with me to the boat. I knew that my 2 boys have not experienced the sensation of heeling, we will revisit that as we go. They had the same experience with just being on the dock or hiking on the trail overlooking a cliff, or swimming in the lake. I just really pick my days carefully, I do have limited access. This coop has shown me that we are really at the pontoon boat stage right now, but that is another time.
Pontoon stage is expensive too-have you priced those things lately?!?
Tiller pilot will really help you-you are basically single handing the boat. It will also let you spend some time with the kids on the basics.
I agree with @Captain Larry-DH give the kids a job. What I have done with two small kids is put one on each jib halyard. When you tack, one let's out theirs and the other pulls in, reverse when doing the opposite tack, each one gets to let it out and pull it in and work the winch handle (with dads help for the last oomph).