you are correct. morty has no interest in getting his expensive autopilot fixed. he'd rather complain about the only manufacturer he has ever had troouble with. what a dumb assumption. how on earth did you come by this flash? how dare you presume to know what i have done before i posted what i did on this forum for others to see. and if uou chose to use a chartplotter for what is was never designed - replacing paper charts - why blame the manufactirer? sad but true? so you also know about my recent conversation with garmin about my nine year old chartplotter where they cheerfully upgraded my software . where do i get a clone of your ouija board? snd, if you bother to read my post, my problem was caused FRESH water incursion. get it? FRESH WATER. no other manufacturer has ever told me to get lost. exaxtly what has raymarine done for you to deserve such loyalty when all i am doing is warning others how i have gotten treated after winding with an autopilot that cost about two thousand dollars and is now useless because of the inexcusable failure of a minor part and the calloussness of the manufacturer. you owe me, and the others on this forum, an apology for your baseless accusations.
Raymarine, again
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I think that's your problem Morty, you think that everyone owes you something. If you read the posts & advice form others like Mainesail, he gave you good advice, but you choose not to take it. I base my comments on your posts. You seem to be more concerned about getting back at Raymarine the getting your autopilot fixed. I'm not defending Raymarine at all, only the dependence that a lot of sailors have on electronics. If you read my post, I was sympathizing with you the fact that these manufactures don't really support their products. They are in the business of selling, not repairing. The real point of my post was to state my opinion that there is too much reliance on electronic gizmos, & not enough on good, basic sailing practices. I actually liked the end comment you made that you learned to trim your sails instead of relying on an autopilot that doesn't work.
My sony television when on the fritz last week and i phoned Sony and there response was also sorry we do not support that model any more ......oh well time to go and buy a new one , no use complaining as everyone has there own opinion on what is good no matter what we say
correct you are, i am one of theose american veterans who think i am owed everything. mainesail (corrct spelling) and i have no disagreement about any facts. now, how do you come about your knowledge of my conversations with catalina, garhauer, seaward, harken, garmin, defender, petit, epifanes, etc, and exqctly how much i have demanded for nothing? if you have nothing constructive so say like mainesail had, just go on the next post. your bitterness is showing. and tell the rest of us exactly how much you know about what i have and have not done. put up or shut up.
To Lost Parent - Yeah, it's funny you mention Sony. I had a 18 year old Sony Trinitron that I bought in college that finally gave up the ghost last week. I didn't even bother to get a quote on fixing something that old & out of date. I've actually had a lot of newer Sony equipment fail, especially their CD & DVD players. No one seems to stand behind their products anymore, and that's really the point. I waited a LONG time to buy into the new flat screen technology, as for the most part they are overpriced & riddled with digital bugs. That's also my point, that sometimes its better just to keep it simple (especially on a boat), as I'm usually better of being more self reliant. When something breaks, unfortunatley all you can do in the end is complain, fix it, or place your bets on a different manufacture next time around.
Morytd
Did not mean anything against you I am also dissapointed that mfgs do do stand behind there products for a longer period of time or at least give us an opption of who could look at it to fix our problems ...I had an old Garmin 235 map that would not work as the internal battery was gone and Garmin would not even offer an option of what to do so I ran around all pissed off until I drove by a TV repair shop one day and stopped and when in and had it fixed for 30 bucks , same as my Simpson Lawrence winch I am working on now , not many parts available but I keep trying to fix it
Did not mean anything against you I am also dissapointed that mfgs do do stand behind there products for a longer period of time or at least give us an opption of who could look at it to fix our problems ...I had an old Garmin 235 map that would not work as the internal battery was gone and Garmin would not even offer an option of what to do so I ran around all pissed off until I drove by a TV repair shop one day and stopped and when in and had it fixed for 30 bucks , same as my Simpson Lawrence winch I am working on now , not many parts available but I keep trying to fix it
that. lost parent, is why this forum exists. to let others know who the raymarines - worst - and garhauers - maybe best - are.
Wow Morty, Who's showing their bitterness? Obviously its you. I know your mad that you autopilot broke but don't take it out on everyone else. Put up or shut up? Who owes who an apology? By the way your not the only one who has served their country. It doesn't give you a license to be bitter. Your obviously being beligerant so I'm not going to continue participating in your hatefest. But I've been sailing for over 30 years, have many sailor friends that respect my advice, & I think I generally give good, solid advice & comments. I try to be positive instead of just playing the blame game.
What frustrates me is that folks expect manufacturers to support electronic products for eons when they are marine but no one expects a 20 year old TV or a Motorola Star Tac phone to be supported? In today's day and age it is just not possible to support electronics very long as manufacturers of components discontinue the components.
I find Raymarine is actually better than most in supporting older products, I deal with them all. of course I am not an n=1 case like Morty is so I get a much wider sample to draw my conclusions from.
Need a fluxgate for 1980's vintage Autohelm, yep still supported and they still have them or they will still fix the one you have. Need a rudder position sensor for an 80's through 2012 autopilot? Yep they still have them and still can repair it or sell you a new one. Need a new ram drive for that 80's AP yep they have them and they will work with the old AP. Need a new wheel drive? Yep they can sell you one that is compatible with your old AP. They even kept the plug the same so just swap the drive and away you go!!! Most manufacturers would have changed the fluxgate or rudder transducer or the plug on the wheel drive, when moving to a new series, yet Raymarine did not. Need a new course computer and display for an older AP yep they have them and they are compatible with your old already installed gear. For a long while Ray was upgrading older domes to work with newer C & E series displays. They eventually ran out of parts to do so but they offered it to their customes. This happens. They recently recalled every AP at the distribution and retail level to swap out the control heads. Why? Part of the reasons is so they can continue to support the 6002, 7002 etc. control heads longer.
Aquasignal spent tens of thousands of dollars developing the series 32 LED nav lights. By the time they got through all the in house development and testing and the ABYC and USCG approvals they had a run of about 1 year. All of a sudden the manufacture of the LED emitter stopped production. Aquasignal was dead in the water with the 32 series lights. You can not just substitute another LED bulb in an already approved product. I suspect hey LOST money on the entire venture and never made a dime. This is just how it goes with electronic component's.
Heck my brother needs a brake part for his 1991 Toyota land cruiser. Toyota no longer has it nor does any after market shop. It is going to cost him 6X what Toyota used to sell it for to have his rebuilt because the shop that does it has to make the parts one off... Toyota's answer was the brakes work without the power assist... Even the companies with the best reputations sometimes discontinue support.
I spoke with Ray this morning while checking on a radome (still supported BTW) and they confirmed the life cycle of the ST-4000 which began in 1991 and ended in 2003 with the introduction of the S1. Based on Morty's statements he purchased it when it was either being discontinued or had already been discontinued. he may not have known but that is the reality. I talked MANY customers out of buying ST-60 products this season because it is now GONE... There will be 3-5 years of support, if that, in parts... Buying end of cycle anything leaves one with an even shorter support life.
Despite that the ST-4000 was then supported through almost 2011 until they ran out of components and could no longer source them. That is a NINE YEAR RUN OF SUPPORT after the product had been discontinued. Not bad.. My Garmin 182C had about 3 years!!!!! Depending upon what was needed they could or could not repair them after 2011 so they put a hard stop on repairs. Need a new plastic case, UV cover or need one tested? They can still do that if you ask nicely.
Morty has been bashing his ST-4000+, and Raymarine, since 2005 when he claims it "blew up" his DC panel.... Not possible, if properly installed, but that is the claim and where this all apparently began.
His 3010C plotter from Garmin is also running on borrowed but as of now is still technically "supported". I seriously doubt it will be supported for NINE years after discontinuation like the ST-4000+ was. Considering I have had both of my 3200 series plotters back to Garmin for repair, and the 3000 & 3200 are in the same family, I suspect Garmin might get the wrath next.
Oh and I had to speak with both Garmin and Raymarine today. Garmin hold time for marine was about 4 minutes and I did not wait at all with Ray, admittedly a bit unusual but the season has passed, and spoke with Linda right off the bat to get my ticket number. She then transferred me over to Lee and he picked right up too...
Maine Sail is the "(correct spelling)".... A mainsail is different... Maine with an "e" is a state, also where I live. Sail is what I like to do, hence Maine Sail seeing as I created the screen name I suspect I actually know how I wanted it spelled...
I find Raymarine is actually better than most in supporting older products, I deal with them all. of course I am not an n=1 case like Morty is so I get a much wider sample to draw my conclusions from.
Need a fluxgate for 1980's vintage Autohelm, yep still supported and they still have them or they will still fix the one you have. Need a rudder position sensor for an 80's through 2012 autopilot? Yep they still have them and still can repair it or sell you a new one. Need a new ram drive for that 80's AP yep they have them and they will work with the old AP. Need a new wheel drive? Yep they can sell you one that is compatible with your old AP. They even kept the plug the same so just swap the drive and away you go!!! Most manufacturers would have changed the fluxgate or rudder transducer or the plug on the wheel drive, when moving to a new series, yet Raymarine did not. Need a new course computer and display for an older AP yep they have them and they are compatible with your old already installed gear. For a long while Ray was upgrading older domes to work with newer C & E series displays. They eventually ran out of parts to do so but they offered it to their customes. This happens. They recently recalled every AP at the distribution and retail level to swap out the control heads. Why? Part of the reasons is so they can continue to support the 6002, 7002 etc. control heads longer.
Aquasignal spent tens of thousands of dollars developing the series 32 LED nav lights. By the time they got through all the in house development and testing and the ABYC and USCG approvals they had a run of about 1 year. All of a sudden the manufacture of the LED emitter stopped production. Aquasignal was dead in the water with the 32 series lights. You can not just substitute another LED bulb in an already approved product. I suspect hey LOST money on the entire venture and never made a dime. This is just how it goes with electronic component's.
Heck my brother needs a brake part for his 1991 Toyota land cruiser. Toyota no longer has it nor does any after market shop. It is going to cost him 6X what Toyota used to sell it for to have his rebuilt because the shop that does it has to make the parts one off... Toyota's answer was the brakes work without the power assist... Even the companies with the best reputations sometimes discontinue support.
I spoke with Ray this morning while checking on a radome (still supported BTW) and they confirmed the life cycle of the ST-4000 which began in 1991 and ended in 2003 with the introduction of the S1. Based on Morty's statements he purchased it when it was either being discontinued or had already been discontinued. he may not have known but that is the reality. I talked MANY customers out of buying ST-60 products this season because it is now GONE... There will be 3-5 years of support, if that, in parts... Buying end of cycle anything leaves one with an even shorter support life.
Despite that the ST-4000 was then supported through almost 2011 until they ran out of components and could no longer source them. That is a NINE YEAR RUN OF SUPPORT after the product had been discontinued. Not bad.. My Garmin 182C had about 3 years!!!!! Depending upon what was needed they could or could not repair them after 2011 so they put a hard stop on repairs. Need a new plastic case, UV cover or need one tested? They can still do that if you ask nicely.
Morty has been bashing his ST-4000+, and Raymarine, since 2005 when he claims it "blew up" his DC panel.... Not possible, if properly installed, but that is the claim and where this all apparently began.
His 3010C plotter from Garmin is also running on borrowed but as of now is still technically "supported". I seriously doubt it will be supported for NINE years after discontinuation like the ST-4000+ was. Considering I have had both of my 3200 series plotters back to Garmin for repair, and the 3000 & 3200 are in the same family, I suspect Garmin might get the wrath next.
Oh and I had to speak with both Garmin and Raymarine today. Garmin hold time for marine was about 4 minutes and I did not wait at all with Ray, admittedly a bit unusual but the season has passed, and spoke with Linda right off the bat to get my ticket number. She then transferred me over to Lee and he picked right up too...
A little presumptions Morty.
Maine Sail is the "(correct spelling)".... A mainsail is different... Maine with an "e" is a state, also where I live. Sail is what I like to do, hence Maine Sail seeing as I created the screen name I suspect I actually know how I wanted it spelled...maine sail we have long beaten this to death, but i do respect you to reply. as an engineer i do agree every product has a life cycle. but, of course, you have no way of knowing how i was treated. the earlier incident you refer to is when my autopilot sent some kind of surge - i am an aerodynamist, not an electrician - and at first raymarine tried to walk away by saying i used the unit in too rough conditions. imagine using a autopilot when you most need it and imagine ray knowing when i used it. . after months of haggling raymarine did finally have my boat yard do all the repairs under warranty. and, with all respect, your opiniion of ray and their products is entirely different from their former employee in whose hands my (rain soaked under a bimini?) water logged unit lies. you problably are aware that out of all the time in this forum i have consistently supported manufacturers.
Properly installed, programmed and your boat balanced these AP's can perform pretty darn well. This short video was taken a year ago today. I am heading out to go for a sail later but only about 12-15 knots today.
This is approx 25-30 knots true, sailing almost downwind on a 20,000 pound vessel flying just the genny and steering by our Raymarine wheel drive only. She is doing hull speed or 6.9 -7.2+ knots against the tide... This is not what I consider rough and we do this all the time with this wheel pilot.
It is is technically way undersized for our vessel at nearly 37 feet and about 20,000 pounds. This wheel pilot has not so much as hiccuped in the 6 seasons of hard use she's been put through. She has about 6500 - 7000 nm on her thus far steering a boat well beyond what Raymarine says it is capable of.
For the $1100.00 we paid for it I have absolutely no complaints. I was expecting the wheel drive to be dead in a year at which point I was going to install the below deck drive.... Still going..Like the Energizer bunny....... But yeah Raymarine is junk...
I am heading out to go for a sail later but only about 12-15 knots today.This is approx 25-30 knots true, sailing almost downwind on a 20,000 pound vessel flying just the genny and steering by our Raymarine wheel drive only. She is doing hull speed or 6.9 -7.2+ knots against the tide... This is not what I consider rough and we do this all the time with this wheel pilot.
It is is technically way undersized for our vessel at nearly 37 feet and about 20,000 pounds. This wheel pilot has not so much as hiccuped in the 6 seasons of hard use she's been put through. She has about 6500 - 7000 nm on her thus far steering a boat well beyond what Raymarine says it is capable of.
For the $1100.00 we paid for it I have absolutely no complaints. I was expecting the wheel drive to be dead in a year at which point I was going to install the below deck drive.... Still going..Like the Energizer bunny....... But yeah Raymarine is junk...
I noticed your outboard was on the dinghy
I have an ST4000 installed in 1995 that has never worked. I honestly haven't had the time to play around and test it but I did pull the wiring to see if it was corroded and when I put it back, tried a sea trial calibration that was not successful. The following week it worked. I really need to fix it or get a new one. The admiral hates to steer especially in strong winds and coming about. She always over steers and then yells at me. Boy it was nice that one weekend.
I have an ST4000 installed in 1995 that has never worked. I honestly haven't had the time to play around and test it but I did pull the wiring to see if it was corroded and when I put it back, tried a sea trial calibration that was not successful. The following week it worked. I really need to fix it or get a new one. The admiral hates to steer especially in strong winds and coming about. She always over steers and then yells at me
. Boy it was nice that one weekend.
If it is rough I take it off. With that wind the motor weight was certainly not slowing me down..I noticed your outboard was on the dinghy
Tough to say. It is often a wiring or installation issue. The biggest issue I find is fluxgate placement and improper programming and set up. I've had numerous customers who's AP's also "did not work". Once into dealer settings, installing the fluxgate so it has no interference and making sure there is a rudder reference transducer they work great.I have an ST4000 installed in 1995 that has never worked. I honestly haven't had the time to play around and test it but I did pull the wiring to see if it was corroded and when I put it back, tried a sea trial calibration that was not successful. The following week it worked. I really need to fix it or get a new one. The admiral hates to steer especially in strong winds and coming about. She always over steers and then yells at me
The new X5's are more "plug and play" than the older ST-4000 and S1's but not when it comes to the compass and certain things. Ours is an S1 with rate gyro and she steers an amazing course even DDW in big seas. Takes a bit to get it set up just right, for your own boat, but it is usually time well spent....
I am reminded of a story:
Several years ago, a coworker and I were travelling. After getting on the plane, my coworker went to his seat, at which point he found it occupied. He brought it to the flight attendants attention in a very demanding manner, "Ma'am, this man has my seat." The flight attendant, busy with an oversold economy section, asked my coworker to hang tight; she would take care of him as soon as she could.
After a few minutes my coworker, (who I just KNOW has had his food aldulterated countless times at restaurants due to his treatment of wait-staff) made his point again to the flight attendant. She again, politely as possible given the situation, told him to hang tight and she would get it taken care of.
The third time he piped up it was just short of a child's fit, (at this point, I was snickering, as I had seen this behavior many times before): "MA'AM, THIS MAN IS IN MY SEAT AND I WANT TO SIT DOWN, NOW!"
The flight attendant, now obviously irritated and frustrated goes abruptly to my co-worker and asks for his ticket. "Well, Mr, XXXXX it seems this is in fact your seat." Then she looked to the gentleman sitting in the seat, who now was obviously embarrased and said: "I think we accidentally sold this seat twice. Will you please come with me to first class where I have a seat waiting for you? While we are waiting to take off, can I get you a drink?" She then turned to my coworker and said, "Here's your seat sir" as she walked towards the front of the plane with the other gentleman....
I got to experience this just recently, after having trouble with a ceiling fan. I called the retailer, where I was informed that the retailer's warranty was expired and I would need to contact the manufacturer of the fan for service. Thinking I had one more shot, I disassembled the fan, took the motor to the retailer's customer service counter and as nicely as possible briefly explained the situation to the nice lady at the desk. She asked me to go look to see if that model fan was still on the shelf. I found the fan, and brought it back up front. She opened the carton, pulled the new motor out, shoved the broken one in and said, "I think this one is broken..." as she looked up at me and smiled....
I like being nice to people.....
Several years ago, a coworker and I were travelling. After getting on the plane, my coworker went to his seat, at which point he found it occupied. He brought it to the flight attendants attention in a very demanding manner, "Ma'am, this man has my seat." The flight attendant, busy with an oversold economy section, asked my coworker to hang tight; she would take care of him as soon as she could.
After a few minutes my coworker, (who I just KNOW has had his food aldulterated countless times at restaurants due to his treatment of wait-staff) made his point again to the flight attendant. She again, politely as possible given the situation, told him to hang tight and she would get it taken care of.
The third time he piped up it was just short of a child's fit, (at this point, I was snickering, as I had seen this behavior many times before): "MA'AM, THIS MAN IS IN MY SEAT AND I WANT TO SIT DOWN, NOW!"
The flight attendant, now obviously irritated and frustrated goes abruptly to my co-worker and asks for his ticket. "Well, Mr, XXXXX it seems this is in fact your seat." Then she looked to the gentleman sitting in the seat, who now was obviously embarrased and said: "I think we accidentally sold this seat twice. Will you please come with me to first class where I have a seat waiting for you? While we are waiting to take off, can I get you a drink?" She then turned to my coworker and said, "Here's your seat sir" as she walked towards the front of the plane with the other gentleman....
I have found numerous times that the level of service one receives is directly correlated to the degree of polite and pleasant patience offered by the person looking for help.
I got to experience this just recently, after having trouble with a ceiling fan. I called the retailer, where I was informed that the retailer's warranty was expired and I would need to contact the manufacturer of the fan for service. Thinking I had one more shot, I disassembled the fan, took the motor to the retailer's customer service counter and as nicely as possible briefly explained the situation to the nice lady at the desk. She asked me to go look to see if that model fan was still on the shelf. I found the fan, and brought it back up front. She opened the carton, pulled the new motor out, shoved the broken one in and said, "I think this one is broken..." as she looked up at me and smiled....
I like being nice to people.....
Maine gave a solid explanation of electronics obsolescence. I have led engineering for several multinationals with huge electronics component buying power and we were constantly faced with component obsolescence. Our customers expect us to support our products for 7-10 years after last active sale, but chips can suddenly go obsolete while the model is still active. Component lives of 5 years or less can be typical. Once we no longer sell a product we do our best to provide the expected support but sometimes it just can't be done. Alternatives range from a total redesign of the product to huge last-time buys of components.
While disappointed that my 4000 couldn't be repaired, I understand the business reasons why. I bought the full X5 kit, left the old fluxgate in place, repaired the broken leads on my existing wheel drive motor and I left the spares on the boat. The rate gyro and more sophisticated electronics in the X5 computer improve performance, so I'm pretty happy with the fix.
While disappointed that my 4000 couldn't be repaired, I understand the business reasons why. I bought the full X5 kit, left the old fluxgate in place, repaired the broken leads on my existing wheel drive motor and I left the spares on the boat. The rate gyro and more sophisticated electronics in the X5 computer improve performance, so I'm pretty happy with the fix.
Sitting here in the lobby of FLIR Systems/Raymarine using their free guest wi-fi while they test a customers C-120 display for me. I walked in the door, explained I'd only be in NH for a few hours and was wondering if it was at all possible for them to at least test the display for a "video fail" issue in the displays self diagnostics. Customers boat comes out next week and I'd like to put it to bed fixed.
"No problem we will test this now, just give us 15-20 minutes. If there is an issue we may even be able to fix it today and send you home with it."....
Within a few minutes Dylan was back with the C-120 and I was out the door... But yeah Raymarine is no good, unresponsive etc. etc...? How many other companies would throw a piece of gear on the test bench within 5 minutes of you walking in the door....???
Sorry but I do feel they often get a bad rap...
"No problem we will test this now, just give us 15-20 minutes. If there is an issue we may even be able to fix it today and send you home with it."....
Within a few minutes Dylan was back with the C-120 and I was out the door... But yeah Raymarine is no good, unresponsive etc. etc...? How many other companies would throw a piece of gear on the test bench within 5 minutes of you walking in the door....???
Sorry but I do feel they often get a bad rap...
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